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Kinda related: it's occurred to that I've only ever witnessed anyone in my life genuinely apologize for something a handful of times. Weird to think about. Pe

Kinda related: it's occurred to that I've only ever witnessed anyone in my life genuinely apologize for something a handful of times. Weird to think about. People really seem to struggle with this.

debt 9y ago
I agree with the anecdote. As a corollary anecdote, the older I get the more I see people taking advantage of other people for their own personal gain.
david-gpu 9y ago
It seems to vary a lot from one culture to another. In Japan making excuses or not apologizing is seen as childish.
- davesque 9y ago
  Yeah, I've wondered about how much this varies. I mostly have my own experience from living in the US. I've spent some time in Japan and I can imagine that what you say is true. Honestly, it's a really nice feeling to have the opportunity to apologize for something you know you did wrong. It can really strengthen a relationship with someone.
- 77pt77 9y ago
  Apologies in Japan are also usually empty and meaningless. It's more of a custom than anything else.
  - davesque 9y ago
    Actually I've wondered about this. I've noticed that, in Japan, when something bad happens, it often seems that someone is expected to appear in public and apologize often while shedding a tear or two. I've seen that happen a few different times and in the same way each time. So yeah, I've thought it might just be a custom.
    - 77pt77 9y ago
      It's actually a running joke among foreigners living there. Someone will apologize, bow deeply, cry (no gender difference), sometimes perform some irrelevant humiliating act (there was a girl that shaved her head) and all is good. No actual behaviour changes, nothing is really addressed, mitigated or prevented.
      - gowld 9y ago
        Are there really no behavior changes? What happens if you shave your head, and then have to apologize again before it grows back? Seems like there are consequences that become incentives. Sure, someone can fake sincerity, but doing the rituals forces the apologizer to think about what they've done, which, in a decent human being, leads to self-reflection and attempt to improve. This is of course gameable by sociopaths, but works decently well for anyone trying to be decent.
andrei_says_ 9y ago
I teach empathy/self-empathy in the context of nonviolence and apology has a lot to do with both. One of the issues of apology is that it is too often used for and associated with humiliation or submission. It is also associated with status/power loss. Once you learn how to apologize without any of these and without triggering the self-preservation alarms, it becomes very easy to apologize honestly, with compassion and understanding. Growth happens through attempting and failing and sometimes succeeding. Many of these failures involve the feelings of others. A sincere apology is invaluable tool In remaining on the same side and building sustainable relationships over longe periods of time.
- kaybe 9y ago
  How do you apologize like that?
  - alexqgb 9y ago
    It depends on the culture. Also worth nothing: some cultures make this effectively impossible.
  - roenxi 9y ago
    As a guess; communication happens in a moment, but also over a time. For example, I might have an apple and you might say to me 'give me your apple'. For me to distinguish between that being a 'request' or a 'demand', I need to observe what you do if I say no. If you try and take my apple by force, it was a demand. If you shrug and move on, or offer something in negotiation, it was a request. This is orthogonal to the fact it wasn't polite - it can be an impolite request. A lot of people can't distinguish a polite demand not backed by physical violence from a request, and that causes problems. Similarly, for me the difference between an apology and say a status play is whether someone changes their behaviors meaningfully after they apologise. If behaviors do not change, it was just a status thing or some other form of insincere apology. Another way is to make the apology conditional, which is really a form of polite demand (ie, demanding the conditional aspect of the apology with the threat of doing whatever the apology was for). This is subtle and can be quite manipulative. People sometimes recognise there is a problem but can't quite identify it.
yesenadam 9y ago
Wow, that's amazing to me. Maybe you are very young. But I wonder what kind of people are in your life. Although it depends what you mean 'genuinely'; maybe you rule out most apologies with that, e.g. "Sorry" for bumping into someone, inadvertently not giving them what they wanted, and other similar everyday apologies. (I do live with someone who hasn't learnt to apologize, in the way you describe. It often seems incomprehensibly inconsiderate.)
- davesque 9y ago
  I'm not super young. And, yes, I'm discounting situations like bumping into a person in the street. I think a lot of people really struggle with admitting openly that they did something wrong. In the US, unfortunately, I think it's often seen as a sign of indecisiveness or lack of fortitude. Of course, this isn't true in every case. But I think it's probably more true than in certain other countries.
- gowld 9y ago
  Everyday apologies aren't necessarily non-genuine, they are simply minor.
sillysaurus3 9y ago
It might be a backlash against over-parenting culture. From a young age, I was taught to apologize for everything. It wasn't until later in life that someone pointed out this was detrimental, so I stopped.
suneilp 9y ago
I attribute that to strong judgmental attitudes towards people for making mistakes, not fitting in, etc. It creates a nasty feedback loop that has taken society a lot of time to overcome and we're not all the way through.
ravenstine 9y ago
People struggle with things that actually matter, or put their character in the spotlight. I've found most people will do everything they can to avoid conflict, which is bad because it means problems don't get resolved. Worse yet, some people such as myself won't correct behavior unless they get explicit feedback. I really effing hate how most people's way of dealing with conflict is through covert aggression; it's insulting because it suggests I'm not capable of arguing like a grown adult, and I'm left to interpret an issue that might just be in my head. I assume people do this for similar reasons to why they won't explicitly apologise for wrongdoings.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
A lot of things really don't warrant an actual apology (bumping into someone, forgetting something) - there isn't a lot you could have done to prevent it. Or you are forced to apologized, even though you weren't actually regretful. Or we are forced to apologize for things we aren't actually sorry for: words that were said instead of apologizing for your contribution to the situation that led up to the words or for the situation the words caused. If polite society doesn't allow folks to express how we actually feel and expects a lot of empty apologies for politeness sake, the genuine apologies are going to be much more rare. It isn't so much a struggle with apologies as a struggle with the expectations of others and the society we live in. To be fair, this is mostly about American culture as I'm more familiar with it. They don't seem as necessary here in Norway for such little offenses (bumping into someone on the bus is a wordless thing, for example).
- hodgesrm 9y ago
  On the other hand, part of politeness is helping others feel better even if you go a bit out of the way to achieve it. American society would not be harmed by more of this.
- davesque 9y ago
  I wasn't talking about little offenses like bumping into someone. I was talking about things like making insensitive remarks or unfairly directing negative feelings or anger at someone who doesn't deserve it or wasn't the cause of the original stress factor that led to the anger. Or maybe even worse things than that. Generally, things about which a person might come to feel some kind of deeper remorse. I do think it's often possible to identify the first person who lost their cool or decided to project their own internal conflict onto someone else. This can sometimes turn out to be oneself.
- gowld 9y ago
  Hmm? If I bump into someone because I wasn't watching where I was going, or I misjudged a gap, there is a lot I could have done to prevent.
- racer-v 9y ago
  One of the first phrases I try to learn when visiting a foreign country is how to apologize for bumping somone, or ask someone to move aside. "Excuse me" in English, "entschuldigen" in German, "jièguāng" in Mandarin. It's so much less awkward being when you can communicate with words. Is there a phrase you would use for this in Norwegian, or would you just clear your throat and tap your foot?

Kinda related: it's occurred to that I've only ever witnessed anyone in my life genuinely apologize for something a handful of times. Weird to think about. People really seem to struggle with this.

debt 9y ago

I agree with the anecdote. As a corollary anecdote, the older I get the more I see people taking advantage of other people for their own personal gain.

david-gpu 9y ago

It seems to vary a lot from one culture to another. In Japan making excuses or not apologizing is seen as childish.

davesque 9y ago
Yeah, I've wondered about how much this varies. I mostly have my own experience from living in the US. I've spent some time in Japan and I can imagine that what you say is true. Honestly, it's a really nice feeling to have the opportunity to apologize for something you know you did wrong. It can really strengthen a relationship with someone.
77pt77 9y ago
Apologies in Japan are also usually empty and meaningless. It's more of a custom than anything else.
- davesque 9y ago
  Actually I've wondered about this. I've noticed that, in Japan, when something bad happens, it often seems that someone is expected to appear in public and apologize often while shedding a tear or two. I've seen that happen a few different times and in the same way each time. So yeah, I've thought it might just be a custom.
  - 77pt77 9y ago
    It's actually a running joke among foreigners living there. Someone will apologize, bow deeply, cry (no gender difference), sometimes perform some irrelevant humiliating act (there was a girl that shaved her head) and all is good. No actual behaviour changes, nothing is really addressed, mitigated or prevented.
    - gowld 9y ago
      Are there really no behavior changes? What happens if you shave your head, and then have to apologize again before it grows back? Seems like there are consequences that become incentives. Sure, someone can fake sincerity, but doing the rituals forces the apologizer to think about what they've done, which, in a decent human being, leads to self-reflection and attempt to improve. This is of course gameable by sociopaths, but works decently well for anyone trying to be decent.

andrei_says_ 9y ago

I teach empathy/self-empathy in the context of nonviolence and apology has a lot to do with both. One of the issues of apology is that it is too often used for and associated with humiliation or submission. It is also associated with status/power loss. Once you learn how to apologize without any of these and without triggering the self-preservation alarms, it becomes very easy to apologize honestly, with compassion and understanding. Growth happens through attempting and failing and sometimes succeeding. Many of these failures involve the feelings of others. A sincere apology is invaluable tool In remaining on the same side and building sustainable relationships over longe periods of time.

kaybe 9y ago
How do you apologize like that?
- alexqgb 9y ago
  It depends on the culture. Also worth nothing: some cultures make this effectively impossible.
- roenxi 9y ago
  As a guess; communication happens in a moment, but also over a time. For example, I might have an apple and you might say to me 'give me your apple'. For me to distinguish between that being a 'request' or a 'demand', I need to observe what you do if I say no. If you try and take my apple by force, it was a demand. If you shrug and move on, or offer something in negotiation, it was a request. This is orthogonal to the fact it wasn't polite - it can be an impolite request. A lot of people can't distinguish a polite demand not backed by physical violence from a request, and that causes problems. Similarly, for me the difference between an apology and say a status play is whether someone changes their behaviors meaningfully after they apologise. If behaviors do not change, it was just a status thing or some other form of insincere apology. Another way is to make the apology conditional, which is really a form of polite demand (ie, demanding the conditional aspect of the apology with the threat of doing whatever the apology was for). This is subtle and can be quite manipulative. People sometimes recognise there is a problem but can't quite identify it.

yesenadam 9y ago

Wow, that's amazing to me. Maybe you are very young. But I wonder what kind of people are in your life. Although it depends what you mean 'genuinely'; maybe you rule out most apologies with that, e.g. "Sorry" for bumping into someone, inadvertently not giving them what they wanted, and other similar everyday apologies. (I do live with someone who hasn't learnt to apologize, in the way you describe. It often seems incomprehensibly inconsiderate.)

davesque 9y ago
I'm not super young. And, yes, I'm discounting situations like bumping into a person in the street. I think a lot of people really struggle with admitting openly that they did something wrong. In the US, unfortunately, I think it's often seen as a sign of indecisiveness or lack of fortitude. Of course, this isn't true in every case. But I think it's probably more true than in certain other countries.
gowld 9y ago
Everyday apologies aren't necessarily non-genuine, they are simply minor.

sillysaurus3 9y ago

It might be a backlash against over-parenting culture. From a young age, I was taught to apologize for everything. It wasn't until later in life that someone pointed out this was detrimental, so I stopped.

suneilp 9y ago

I attribute that to strong judgmental attitudes towards people for making mistakes, not fitting in, etc. It creates a nasty feedback loop that has taken society a lot of time to overcome and we're not all the way through.

ravenstine 9y ago

People struggle with things that actually matter, or put their character in the spotlight. I've found most people will do everything they can to avoid conflict, which is bad because it means problems don't get resolved. Worse yet, some people such as myself won't correct behavior unless they get explicit feedback. I really effing hate how most people's way of dealing with conflict is through covert aggression; it's insulting because it suggests I'm not capable of arguing like a grown adult, and I'm left to interpret an issue that might just be in my head. I assume people do this for similar reasons to why they won't explicitly apologise for wrongdoings.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

A lot of things really don't warrant an actual apology (bumping into someone, forgetting something) - there isn't a lot you could have done to prevent it. Or you are forced to apologized, even though you weren't actually regretful. Or we are forced to apologize for things we aren't actually sorry for: words that were said instead of apologizing for your contribution to the situation that led up to the words or for the situation the words caused. If polite society doesn't allow folks to express how we actually feel and expects a lot of empty apologies for politeness sake, the genuine apologies are going to be much more rare. It isn't so much a struggle with apologies as a struggle with the expectations of others and the society we live in. To be fair, this is mostly about American culture as I'm more familiar with it. They don't seem as necessary here in Norway for such little offenses (bumping into someone on the bus is a wordless thing, for example).

hodgesrm 9y ago
On the other hand, part of politeness is helping others feel better even if you go a bit out of the way to achieve it. American society would not be harmed by more of this.
davesque 9y ago
I wasn't talking about little offenses like bumping into someone. I was talking about things like making insensitive remarks or unfairly directing negative feelings or anger at someone who doesn't deserve it or wasn't the cause of the original stress factor that led to the anger. Or maybe even worse things than that. Generally, things about which a person might come to feel some kind of deeper remorse. I do think it's often possible to identify the first person who lost their cool or decided to project their own internal conflict onto someone else. This can sometimes turn out to be oneself.
gowld 9y ago
Hmm? If I bump into someone because I wasn't watching where I was going, or I misjudged a gap, there is a lot I could have done to prevent.
racer-v 9y ago
One of the first phrases I try to learn when visiting a foreign country is how to apologize for bumping somone, or ask someone to move aside. "Excuse me" in English, "entschuldigen" in German, "jièguāng" in Mandarin. It's so much less awkward being when you can communicate with words. Is there a phrase you would use for this in Norwegian, or would you just clear your throat and tap your foot?