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In my case, it was Electron's startup performance that made me go for PyQt [1]. [1]: https://fman.io/blog/picking-technologies-for-a-desktop-app-in-2016/ https

In my case, it was Electron's startup performance that made me go for PyQt [1]. [1]: https://fman.io/blog/picking-technologies-for-a-desktop-app-in-2016/ https://fman.io/blog/picking-technologies-for-a-desktop-app-...

KirinDave 9y ago
I am happy you found something that worked for you. But to me, I'm just very frustrated. People consistently suggest Qt is a net good because Electron uses more RAM and just totally abandon accessibility. The proliferation of Electron is one of the single most progressive things to happen on the front of general desktop application accessibility for folks with special visual or motor control needs since OS's started addressing these needs directly Let's just contrast and compare: The ENTIRE story for Qt accessibility is tree navigation, with trust that readers exist: http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/accessible-qwidget.html http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/accessible-qwidget.html Meanwhile Electron has an auditing tool for a wide range of accessibility requirements which also explains how you can fix the problems: https://github.com/electron/spectron#accessibility-testing https://github.com/electron/spectron#accessibility-testing But congrats now we can run 2 tabbed text editor instances at once. Because for some crazy reason we're going to pretend Electron apps aren't competitive on $30 computers but IntelliJ is immune to criticism. On a more emotional and personal level, in my entire time using linux since 1995, I've never once used a Qt app I liked. I wrote them professionally, and I hated each one and felt ashamed of the outputs. To me, to then layer Python on top is like taking stale bread and slathering on that curiously pale, overly sweet peanut butter that they use on airlines. It's quite possibly the most Nope thing you could say other than, "Oh and also we embedded an APL interpreter and you'll need to write C++ circa 1995 for memory management."
- mwcampbell 9y ago
  Thank you for caring about accessibility. However, I don't think the pros and cons between Qt and Electron are as straightforward as you may think. First, Qt accessibility on Windows is improving: https://blind.guru/qtwin.html https://blind.guru/qtwin.html This blogger specifically mentions the JAWS screen reader, but this should also help users of the Narrator screen reader built into Windows. Speaking of which, Electron is not very accessible with Narrator. The reason is that Chromium implements IAccessible2, a non-Microsoft extension of the old Microsoft Accessibility API. Since IA2 is not a Microsoft API, Narrator doesn't support it. Also, one of my blind friends told me a few months ago that Electron apps are inaccessible on Linux. I haven't yet verified this myself. Qt is accessible on Linux, though I don't know how it compares with GTK. I don't know what the situation is on Mac.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    I've seen folks with readers on Chrome on Linux. I don't mean to imply that Electron magically providers full accessibility; just that the underlying engine has much more robust support not only for readers and navigators (to which there is a ceiling folks aspire to), but also for auditing. It's not really possible for developers to understand the full extend of accessibility needs unless they experience it themselves. As such, Electron and Chrome's accessibility auditing tools that capture these needs are an incredible step forwards. As for Narrator, I think historically folks have been somewhat inclined to use third party or direct integration tools because it was widely considered to be inferior to the capabilities provided by direct integrations like ChromeVox or Apple's (superior) Voice Over (which from all reports I get and can find casually searching, works as well as Safari if not better).

KirinDave 9y ago

I am happy you found something that worked for you. But to me, I'm just very frustrated. People consistently suggest Qt is a net good because Electron uses more RAM and just totally abandon accessibility. The proliferation of Electron is one of the single most progressive things to happen on the front of general desktop application accessibility for folks with special visual or motor control needs since OS's started addressing these needs directly Let's just contrast and compare: The ENTIRE story for Qt accessibility is tree navigation, with trust that readers exist: http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/accessible-qwidget.html http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/accessible-qwidget.html Meanwhile Electron has an auditing tool for a wide range of accessibility requirements which also explains how you can fix the problems: https://github.com/electron/spectron#accessibility-testing https://github.com/electron/spectron#accessibility-testing But congrats now we can run 2 tabbed text editor instances at once. Because for some crazy reason we're going to pretend Electron apps aren't competitive on $30 computers but IntelliJ is immune to criticism. On a more emotional and personal level, in my entire time using linux since 1995, I've never once used a Qt app I liked. I wrote them professionally, and I hated each one and felt ashamed of the outputs. To me, to then layer Python on top is like taking stale bread and slathering on that curiously pale, overly sweet peanut butter that they use on airlines. It's quite possibly the most Nope thing you could say other than, "Oh and also we embedded an APL interpreter and you'll need to write C++ circa 1995 for memory management."

mwcampbell 9y ago
Thank you for caring about accessibility. However, I don't think the pros and cons between Qt and Electron are as straightforward as you may think. First, Qt accessibility on Windows is improving: https://blind.guru/qtwin.html https://blind.guru/qtwin.html This blogger specifically mentions the JAWS screen reader, but this should also help users of the Narrator screen reader built into Windows. Speaking of which, Electron is not very accessible with Narrator. The reason is that Chromium implements IAccessible2, a non-Microsoft extension of the old Microsoft Accessibility API. Since IA2 is not a Microsoft API, Narrator doesn't support it. Also, one of my blind friends told me a few months ago that Electron apps are inaccessible on Linux. I haven't yet verified this myself. Qt is accessible on Linux, though I don't know how it compares with GTK. I don't know what the situation is on Mac.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  I've seen folks with readers on Chrome on Linux. I don't mean to imply that Electron magically providers full accessibility; just that the underlying engine has much more robust support not only for readers and navigators (to which there is a ceiling folks aspire to), but also for auditing. It's not really possible for developers to understand the full extend of accessibility needs unless they experience it themselves. As such, Electron and Chrome's accessibility auditing tools that capture these needs are an incredible step forwards. As for Narrator, I think historically folks have been somewhat inclined to use third party or direct integration tools because it was widely considered to be inferior to the capabilities provided by direct integrations like ChromeVox or Apple's (superior) Voice Over (which from all reports I get and can find casually searching, works as well as Safari if not better).