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>Yes. The official Chinese government is developing it and planning to force it on its citizens. So your only problem is that it's the government? I guess I se

>Yes. The official Chinese government is developing it and planning to force it on its citizens. So your only problem is that it's the government? I guess I see a lot more wrong with it. Actually that's unfair you do see another problem with it: >The common complaints center on "right to be forgotten", "unfairness", "ostracization", etc. So don't American workers deserve those same rights? How is it that an Uber Driver or Food-Delivery Professional or whatever we call it has a "right to be forgotten" when the only way for him to get work is to consent to a permanent report card which follows him wherever he goes? >some technical ideas to help freelancers. That's exactly my point on viewpoint! Right, this is an 'interesting technical problem' while Social Credit is 'Orwellian.' >On the other hand, this article is spitballing People in the Chinese government were just spitballing at one point as well. I'm just pointing and saying: "that's a nasty looking spitball Cassie just hocked up." Besides she mentions two companies working in this space, quick tell me, doesn't this sound like Chinese Social Credit? "Empowering trustworthy people to build a fairer world." "the old credit score system does not recognize you as a trustworthy citizen. Prove how wrong they are and get the conditions you deserve." "We need a new form of credit score that empowers people. Fortunately today we have new data sources to assess whether people behave well and are trustworthy. Traity´s algorithms use non-credit data like eBay or AirBnB profiles, FB and LinkedIn social networks, to determine people’s trustworthiness, giving you the chance to get access to the services you need at the prices you deserve." Yeah, they're all from traity.com. This is something that we need to push back against. >The author, Cassie Robinson is not a government official forcing these ratings on everyone. Correct.

jasode 9y ago
>So don't American workers deserve those same rights? [...] the only way for him to get work is to consent to a permanent report card which follows him wherever he goes? Those rights are relevant to China's forced social credit but are not relevant to the decentralized ratings _owned_ by freelancers. Your doomsday scenario of "only way to get work is permanent ratings" is hyperbolic. Consider a freelance camera man, or freelance carpenter. At the JohnDoeCameraMan.com webpage, he has: + customer testimonials + customer references + endorsements + portfolio of previous work from past customers (film credits, film stills, etc) These 4 "ratings", are already decentralized and owned on his webpage. He also wants to own "platform" ratings as well. Why are voluntary decentralized ratings a scary bogeyman that threatens other freelancers with joblessness? You say that some freelancers that use portable ratings to their advantage pressures other freelancers to carry ratings because that's the "only way to get work." But people have been getting work without a history of customer testimonials, and without references, without endorsements, without AngiesList ratings, etc. I'm not convinced that an optional portable rating system creates a defacto forced system. None of the previous social signals of past work history has created a defacto forced itemization of customer references & testimonials. >tell me, doesn't this sound like Chinese Social Credit? No, the China government controls the ratings by a central authority. It's very easy to see how it can be used as a tool for opppression. I don't agree that there's a equivalent leap between freelancers owning their ratings to the China system. >This is something that we need to push back against. Who is "we"? Are you speaking for the freelancers who _want_ their portable ratings? We seem to be coming at this from very different philosophical positions. Let me ask an honest question to get a baseline of your thinking... Do you believe a carpenter should delete "customer testimonials and references" from his website because if he leaves it there, it makes it unfair for the other carpenters who don't have customer testimonials? If yes, we are _way_ apart on seeing how society wants to naturally interact. We certainly wouldn't be able to bridge that massive canyon by exchanging HN comments.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  Okay, I think we have space to engage but first let's disengage on one thing - 'want.' I showed you quotes from Chinese citizens who want their own rating system, if we're talking about the morality of what's proposed in this article then 'want' has nothing to do with it. Certain individuals in the US want this, certain individuals in China want Social Credit, yet you see one as a human rights abuse and one as not so 'want' or 'desire' for such a system is not going to be a determining factor in which is good and which is bad. Consider a freelance camera man, or freelance carpenter. At the JohnDoeCameraMan.com webpage, he has: + customer testimonials + customer references + endorsements + portfolio of previous work from past customers (film credits, film stills, etc) Exactly! Because you're not going to use the freelance carpenter that doesn't have at least a few of those things right? In fact, basically (or completely) no one will. So the freelance carpenter is compelled by the market to offer at least a few of those things on his website. I wouldn't call that voluntary because his livelihood depends on having a few testimonials or endorsements. To him it's exactly the same whether individuals in the market refuse to buy his service because he has no testimonials or whether the government tells him he can't sell his service because he has no testimonials. Both situations are equally voluntary (which is to say not at all.) Now if you had a much more objective measure out there, a lifetime score where you can never hide any blemish, which is systematic across time you'd be much more likely to use that right? After all testimonials, good experiences, bad experiences, it's all in there. The basic problem here is that the market is going to prefer a lifetime unscrubbable rating history. It's straight up more information. So carpenters and camera men will be coerced into this system - the same one that you believe violates human rights. >I'm not convinced that an optional portable rating system creates a defacto forced system. None of the previous social signals of past work history has created a defacto forced itemization of customer references & testimonials. Yes, you don't have to itemize it any specific way, but you still have to have them and that's the point. >Who is "we"? Are you speaking for the freelancers who _want_ their portable ratings? Do you think the Chinese should stand against Social Credit? What about the ones who want it? >Do you believe a carpenter should delete "customer testimonials and references" from his website because if he leaves it there, it makes it unfair for the other carpenters who don't have customer testimonials? No because testimonials aren't held across all time, in the current system I can start over. My problem with both rating systems is twofold. (1) the idea that it erases a right to be forgotten and (2) that people will be coerced into the system.

jasode 9y ago

>So don't American workers deserve those same rights? [...] the only way for him to get work is to consent to a permanent report card which follows him wherever he goes? Those rights are relevant to China's forced social credit but are not relevant to the decentralized ratings _owned_ by freelancers. Your doomsday scenario of "only way to get work is permanent ratings" is hyperbolic. Consider a freelance camera man, or freelance carpenter. At the JohnDoeCameraMan.com webpage, he has: + customer testimonials + customer references + endorsements + portfolio of previous work from past customers (film credits, film stills, etc) These 4 "ratings", are already decentralized and owned on his webpage. He also wants to own "platform" ratings as well. Why are voluntary decentralized ratings a scary bogeyman that threatens other freelancers with joblessness? You say that some freelancers that use portable ratings to their advantage pressures other freelancers to carry ratings because that's the "only way to get work." But people have been getting work without a history of customer testimonials, and without references, without endorsements, without AngiesList ratings, etc. I'm not convinced that an optional portable rating system creates a defacto forced system. None of the previous social signals of past work history has created a defacto forced itemization of customer references & testimonials. >tell me, doesn't this sound like Chinese Social Credit? No, the China government controls the ratings by a central authority. It's very easy to see how it can be used as a tool for opppression. I don't agree that there's a equivalent leap between freelancers owning their ratings to the China system. >This is something that we need to push back against. Who is "we"? Are you speaking for the freelancers who _want_ their portable ratings? We seem to be coming at this from very different philosophical positions. Let me ask an honest question to get a baseline of your thinking... Do you believe a carpenter should delete "customer testimonials and references" from his website because if he leaves it there, it makes it unfair for the other carpenters who don't have customer testimonials? If yes, we are _way_ apart on seeing how society wants to naturally interact. We certainly wouldn't be able to bridge that massive canyon by exchanging HN comments.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
Okay, I think we have space to engage but first let's disengage on one thing - 'want.' I showed you quotes from Chinese citizens who want their own rating system, if we're talking about the morality of what's proposed in this article then 'want' has nothing to do with it. Certain individuals in the US want this, certain individuals in China want Social Credit, yet you see one as a human rights abuse and one as not so 'want' or 'desire' for such a system is not going to be a determining factor in which is good and which is bad. Consider a freelance camera man, or freelance carpenter. At the JohnDoeCameraMan.com webpage, he has: + customer testimonials + customer references + endorsements + portfolio of previous work from past customers (film credits, film stills, etc) Exactly! Because you're not going to use the freelance carpenter that doesn't have at least a few of those things right? In fact, basically (or completely) no one will. So the freelance carpenter is compelled by the market to offer at least a few of those things on his website. I wouldn't call that voluntary because his livelihood depends on having a few testimonials or endorsements. To him it's exactly the same whether individuals in the market refuse to buy his service because he has no testimonials or whether the government tells him he can't sell his service because he has no testimonials. Both situations are equally voluntary (which is to say not at all.) Now if you had a much more objective measure out there, a lifetime score where you can never hide any blemish, which is systematic across time you'd be much more likely to use that right? After all testimonials, good experiences, bad experiences, it's all in there. The basic problem here is that the market is going to prefer a lifetime unscrubbable rating history. It's straight up more information. So carpenters and camera men will be coerced into this system - the same one that you believe violates human rights. >I'm not convinced that an optional portable rating system creates a defacto forced system. None of the previous social signals of past work history has created a defacto forced itemization of customer references & testimonials. Yes, you don't have to itemize it any specific way, but you still have to have them and that's the point. >Who is "we"? Are you speaking for the freelancers who _want_ their portable ratings? Do you think the Chinese should stand against Social Credit? What about the ones who want it? >Do you believe a carpenter should delete "customer testimonials and references" from his website because if he leaves it there, it makes it unfair for the other carpenters who don't have customer testimonials? No because testimonials aren't held across all time, in the current system I can start over. My problem with both rating systems is twofold. (1) the idea that it erases a right to be forgotten and (2) that people will be coerced into the system.