6 ms·

Pale Moon Official Branding Violation – Issue #86 – Jasperla/openbsd-wip

54 points by protomyth 9y ago

mulander 9y ago
It's now also reviewed for removal from FreeBSD: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2018-February/112455.html https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2018-Febru...
- protomyth 9y ago
  This message is a pretty good summary of why the shared library issue is important to the BSDs and might make one pause about using Pale Moon. https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2018-February/112459.html https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2018-Febru...
- angelsl 9y ago
  FreeBSD decided to just remove the Pale Moon branding.
anfilt 9y ago
Well, that escalated quickly. However, this was handled quite poorly. Moreover, there are not that many choices of decent browsers. Mozilla has their problems, Chrome/Chromium is a google project. It even gets worse when you think of how few browser engines there are.
Analemma_ 9y ago
In discussions about having more gender parity in programming, I sometimes hear people ask what benefits, specifically, it would provide to the projects themselves. Here's one possible example: if we had a more equitable gender ratio in open-source, we might have have fewer dick-waving contests like that thread. I don't even know what it's about, and I don't care: all the involved participants are just peacocking Internet Tough Guys. What a waste of time.
- 0xBAADA555 9y ago
  >I don't even know what it's about, and I don't care That's obvious.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- IntelMiner 9y ago
  I'm not sure what gender has to do with that thread From my experience. Being an asshole is not a gendered trait
  - Analemma_ 9y ago
    > Being an asshole is not a gendered trait When considering a sufficiently zoomed-out view of all the different ways to be an asshole, I think you're right. But the particular form of asshole-ishness in this thread– swaggering in and immediately starting with demands ("You will revise your mozconfig..."), responding with passive-aggressive logical handwaving about how the person will never be listened to again ("you are dismissed from all further conversation on this matter...")– is strongly gendered, in my experience, and it's all too common in the open-source world. The Atwood/Gruber Markdown spat, the Debian/XScreenSaver version warning, and the Bootstrap/JSMin semicolon debacle are all good previous examples of the same dynamic here. In all cases, there were no or very minor actual technical disagreements; all the sound and fury was just men digging in and refusing to give an inch of ground to another person who had very good points, while being as aggressive as possible to guarantee a real resolution couldn't be reached. We could use a lot less of that.
    - IntelMiner 9y ago
      Again. I think you're drawing conclusions where there are none. For the sake of better fitting your examples. I'll say ego isn't a gendered trait. Versus describing someone as an asshole Having a massive ego is just a thing that some people have. It's human, and humans are flawed individuals. Yes. There's a lot more men in computing. So there's a lot more examples of ego clashing from "men". But I'd suspect the dynamic not to change much if it was a true 50/50 split. Or even a complete reversal of the current gender bias (something like 90% men I'm told? it's hard to get accurate statistics) For a specific citation against this theory (though I try to avoid mailing list fights). I'd point to the Libreboot project. Where the lead (and possibly only?) developer went on a personal crusade against the Free Software Foundation. Using the project as a spearhead to personally demean them for a perceived attack against someone else
ihatedang 9y ago
Does anyone have an IPFS mirror yet?
- unixhero 9y ago
  Hosted where?
yuhong 9y ago
I wonder what the official Mozilla Firefox upstream does.
cthalupa 9y ago
How bizarre. I can't say I've ever used Pale Moon or particularly care about it, but the behavior in that thread would have had me eject and find something different pretty much immediately. Starting off with such forceful language and without a hint of wanting to deal with the issue in an amicable manner is nuts. The first guy comes across as an asshole, and no one wants to deal with assholes - it's perfectly reasonable to ask to talk with the rights holder and hope they're more reasonable. Unfortunately, it turns out the rights holder isn't any more reasonable. An immediate 'I will not be as educational next time' is a clear threat, even though he tries to backpedal away from it later. And then we find out that the person working on the port approached the Palemoon people days ago asking about the proper way to do things, etc. So, in the end, we have a WIP repo that does not in any way show up in the official ports tree for OpenBSD, with someone trying to do things the Right Way, getting pushed around by two people being assholes. Now, for the technical merit: Forcing people to use special bundled libraries instead of system libraries is dumb in the vast majority of cases, especially in something that will be running untrusted code as a basic function. Like, say, a web browser. It significantly increases the amount of work required to make sure you are running a system protected against known vulnerabilities. The reasoning seems to be that whatever they're doing in the browser seems to not play nice with the upstream libs, so they've instead started doing god know's what with libs they now bundle with it. Why don't the fix the issues in their own project? No idea. If they're actually flaws with the libs, why not submit upstream patches? Not only do you have to worry about them making sure they are quickly backporting any security related fixes, you also have to worry that whatever modifications they've made might open up new security bugs, or potentially nullify fixes from upstream. The whole MPL style branding nonsense is also bizarre and something I think is incredibly counter to the spirit of the open source software movement. It was silly with Firefox and Iceweasel, it's silly now. Questionable technical decisions, questionable behavior, questionable commitment to the spirit of open source software. I'll pass.
- squarefoot 9y ago
  "but the behavior in that thread would have had me eject and find something different pretty much immediately." Ditto. And I speak as a PaleMoon user as it's the browser of choice on all my machines. They could be right on principle, but the OP had no right to act as an ass that way. (edit: posted by mistake on top thread)
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
unixhero 9y ago
This was a great read. Just came here to say that.

54 points by protomyth 9y ago

It's now also reviewed for removal from FreeBSD: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2018-February/112455.html https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2018-Febru...

protomyth 9y ago
This message is a pretty good summary of why the shared library issue is important to the BSDs and might make one pause about using Pale Moon. https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2018-February/112459.html https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2018-Febru...
angelsl 9y ago
FreeBSD decided to just remove the Pale Moon branding.

anfilt 9y ago

Well, that escalated quickly. However, this was handled quite poorly. Moreover, there are not that many choices of decent browsers. Mozilla has their problems, Chrome/Chromium is a google project. It even gets worse when you think of how few browser engines there are.

Analemma_ 9y ago

In discussions about having more gender parity in programming, I sometimes hear people ask what benefits, specifically, it would provide to the projects themselves. Here's one possible example: if we had a more equitable gender ratio in open-source, we might have have fewer dick-waving contests like that thread. I don't even know what it's about, and I don't care: all the involved participants are just peacocking Internet Tough Guys. What a waste of time.

0xBAADA555 9y ago
>I don't even know what it's about, and I don't care That's obvious.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
IntelMiner 9y ago
I'm not sure what gender has to do with that thread From my experience. Being an asshole is not a gendered trait
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  > Being an asshole is not a gendered trait When considering a sufficiently zoomed-out view of all the different ways to be an asshole, I think you're right. But the particular form of asshole-ishness in this thread– swaggering in and immediately starting with demands ("You will revise your mozconfig..."), responding with passive-aggressive logical handwaving about how the person will never be listened to again ("you are dismissed from all further conversation on this matter...")– is strongly gendered, in my experience, and it's all too common in the open-source world. The Atwood/Gruber Markdown spat, the Debian/XScreenSaver version warning, and the Bootstrap/JSMin semicolon debacle are all good previous examples of the same dynamic here. In all cases, there were no or very minor actual technical disagreements; all the sound and fury was just men digging in and refusing to give an inch of ground to another person who had very good points, while being as aggressive as possible to guarantee a real resolution couldn't be reached. We could use a lot less of that.
  - IntelMiner 9y ago
    Again. I think you're drawing conclusions where there are none. For the sake of better fitting your examples. I'll say ego isn't a gendered trait. Versus describing someone as an asshole Having a massive ego is just a thing that some people have. It's human, and humans are flawed individuals. Yes. There's a lot more men in computing. So there's a lot more examples of ego clashing from "men". But I'd suspect the dynamic not to change much if it was a true 50/50 split. Or even a complete reversal of the current gender bias (something like 90% men I'm told? it's hard to get accurate statistics) For a specific citation against this theory (though I try to avoid mailing list fights). I'd point to the Libreboot project. Where the lead (and possibly only?) developer went on a personal crusade against the Free Software Foundation. Using the project as a spearhead to personally demean them for a perceived attack against someone else

ihatedang 9y ago

Does anyone have an IPFS mirror yet?

unixhero 9y ago
Hosted where?

yuhong 9y ago

I wonder what the official Mozilla Firefox upstream does.

cthalupa 9y ago

How bizarre. I can't say I've ever used Pale Moon or particularly care about it, but the behavior in that thread would have had me eject and find something different pretty much immediately. Starting off with such forceful language and without a hint of wanting to deal with the issue in an amicable manner is nuts. The first guy comes across as an asshole, and no one wants to deal with assholes - it's perfectly reasonable to ask to talk with the rights holder and hope they're more reasonable. Unfortunately, it turns out the rights holder isn't any more reasonable. An immediate 'I will not be as educational next time' is a clear threat, even though he tries to backpedal away from it later. And then we find out that the person working on the port approached the Palemoon people days ago asking about the proper way to do things, etc. So, in the end, we have a WIP repo that does not in any way show up in the official ports tree for OpenBSD, with someone trying to do things the Right Way, getting pushed around by two people being assholes. Now, for the technical merit: Forcing people to use special bundled libraries instead of system libraries is dumb in the vast majority of cases, especially in something that will be running untrusted code as a basic function. Like, say, a web browser. It significantly increases the amount of work required to make sure you are running a system protected against known vulnerabilities. The reasoning seems to be that whatever they're doing in the browser seems to not play nice with the upstream libs, so they've instead started doing god know's what with libs they now bundle with it. Why don't the fix the issues in their own project? No idea. If they're actually flaws with the libs, why not submit upstream patches? Not only do you have to worry about them making sure they are quickly backporting any security related fixes, you also have to worry that whatever modifications they've made might open up new security bugs, or potentially nullify fixes from upstream. The whole MPL style branding nonsense is also bizarre and something I think is incredibly counter to the spirit of the open source software movement. It was silly with Firefox and Iceweasel, it's silly now. Questionable technical decisions, questionable behavior, questionable commitment to the spirit of open source software. I'll pass.

squarefoot 9y ago
"but the behavior in that thread would have had me eject and find something different pretty much immediately." Ditto. And I speak as a PaleMoon user as it's the browser of choice on all my machines. They could be right on principle, but the OP had no right to act as an ass that way. (edit: posted by mistake on top thread)

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

unixhero 9y ago

This was a great read. Just came here to say that.