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Humans are capable of learning new things, but in general they don't like to. And they HATE when learning new things is not optional and is a requirement for c

Humans are capable of learning new things, but in general they don't like to. And they HATE when learning new things is not optional and is a requirement for continued employment. Just because we can adapt doesn't mean this transition won't be extremely difficult for society and have major consequences. Just look at the riots in Greece when people were told the age of retirement eligibility for state pensions was going from 61 to 63.

imgabe 9y ago
I'm sure at some point in human history some group of humans depended on, say, a herd of bison who grazed on a certain plain. I'm sure they had a really good system and they knew all about that herd of bison and how to best hunt them. Then maybe something changed and the bison weren't there anymore. Did they complain that they now had to learn a new way to hunt bison or perhaps a new way to find food entirely? Probably some of them did. Maybe they didn't like that they were forced by circumstances to learn something new. Still, nature doesn't care whether you like what you have to do to survive or not. Adapt or die. Such is life.
- plurgid 9y ago
  hold on now. This isn't nature we're talking about here. It's other humans. When I spend 20 or 30 years of my life specializing in a particular task, and doing it to generate a large amount of wealth for my employer, who passes a much smaller amount of wealth on to me, there are and should be strings attached to that from the employer's side. In the US at least, there are already PLENTY of strings attached from the employee side. I can't see a doctor without a job. I can't borrow money without a job. I can't smoke grass, yadda yadda yadda. And I live in an "at will" state as well. Sorry. This is not nature we're dealing with. It's humans exploiting other humans. The "adapt or die" philosophy is not justified.
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    Unless adapt means squeeze your own workers better and more efficiently. The adaptation here is not to switch or become the slave master yourself. It is to resist and fight the problematic system of exploitation in all available alternative ways. The "job" system is enforced at as low level as getting or not credit based on whether you get paid regularly or by whom. It is enforced by preferential rated for insurance and taxes for employers. Etc. Unfortunately the solution, which is organized resistance to these ideas, is easy to pervert or bribe away.
  - imgabe 9y ago
    In terms of your ability as an individual to effect the situation, the difference between nature and other humans is mostly academic. What's going to be more successful: forcing millions of other humans to pay more for a less convenient service than the alternative or just learning a different way to make a living? > I can't see a doctor without a job. I wasn't aware doctors ran employment checks before seeing patients. I haven't been to the doctor in a long time, though. > I can't borrow money without a job. Uh, yeah? People who lend you money like to see that you have some means of paying it back. How is that relevant? > I can't smoke grass Depends on the job, but that is a legal issue. I doubt most employers would care if the law didn't force them to. > The "adapt or die" philosophy is not justified. This is not a philosophy, it's a statement of the reality of the situation. Circumstances change due to forces beyond your control This will happen to everyone at some point. You can stamp your feet and whine and moan and demand that someone else (Who exactly?) put them back the way they were, or you can figure out how to deal with them.
    - AstralStorm 9y ago
      You're advising an individual to deal on their own with a systemic problem... Sounds callous and egotistical.
      - imgabe 9y ago
        Do you advise individuals to ignore problems and not deal with them? What do you propose as the alternative to dealing with a problem? Sit around and wait for somebody else to fix it for you? Driving, as a job, is going away. Not much is going to change that, nor should it. What is your advice for the drivers? "Sit on your hands, and hope that someone gives you some free money at some point"? Would they not be better served by taking some action to find a new line of work now?
        socrates666 9y ago
        Support companies that care for their employees. Turn your back to those that exploit. I think it's called capitalism.
djsumdog 9y ago
Plus you start way at the bottom. I was sick of software and though about going into photography. But I realized I'd be shelling out a lot for equipment, schooling/certificates (unless I could find an apprenticeship). Then I'd have to build back up to a decent income. I knew another Computer Scientist who got his EMT certificate and worked in an ambulance service for two years, but ended up coming back to IT. If I personally leave the work force again, it would be after getting funding for a PhD. I'd gladly take a greatly reduced wage if I could be on my way towards teaching and researching in a university.
pmoriarty 9y ago
"Humans are capable of learning new things, but in general they don't like to. And they HATE when learning new things is not optional and is a requirement for continued employment." The attitude towards learning really depends on what one is learning, what the experience of learning is like, and why one is learning it. People tend to view learning very positively when they are learning something they are intensely interested in, that they feel is very important, and when the process of learning feels effortless and fun. When learning is painful and frustrating, when it's learning of something one is not at all interested in, that one feels indifferent or even hostile towards, that one thinks is unimportant, and when one feels forced to learn because of economic or other considerations where the power dynamic is highly skewed against the learner, and where the learner has little control over what and how they learn, yes, people tend not to like that.
- ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
  That's exactly what I was trying to say, but you said better. People LOVE learning skills in certain environments like a video game. But I think the serious consequences of NOT learning when you lose your job tends to make learning more difficult. So even though you want what you are learning to be important. If it is TOO IMPORTANT the scale tips in the opposite direction.
  - candiodari 9y ago
    I feel like there is much psychological research that concludes the opposite of this. People love learning new things, if there's a clear reward, for instance being jobless and finding a new job because of a new skill. By contrast, people in a cushy job "settle in", and learn nothing, or even unlearn things over time. In addition to the research, one seems to find many stories of exactly this happening. Quite the opposite is true: people don't like learning UNLESS there is a clear reward. That's even true for the video game case, where it's simply that the reward is social rather than economical.
    - socrates666 9y ago
      I disagree. I was unemployed for a few months and I could not get myself to do the things I needed to in order to get the jobs I was interested in. There was so much anxiety associated with this that it triggered avoidance anxiety. What saved me is that studying the things I am naturally drawn to that have a lot of tangential offerings. My advice: find the biggest tree of knowledge that you're interested in and hope that the branches that you can reach will take care of you.

imgabe 9y ago

I'm sure at some point in human history some group of humans depended on, say, a herd of bison who grazed on a certain plain. I'm sure they had a really good system and they knew all about that herd of bison and how to best hunt them. Then maybe something changed and the bison weren't there anymore. Did they complain that they now had to learn a new way to hunt bison or perhaps a new way to find food entirely? Probably some of them did. Maybe they didn't like that they were forced by circumstances to learn something new. Still, nature doesn't care whether you like what you have to do to survive or not. Adapt or die. Such is life.

plurgid 9y ago
hold on now. This isn't nature we're talking about here. It's other humans. When I spend 20 or 30 years of my life specializing in a particular task, and doing it to generate a large amount of wealth for my employer, who passes a much smaller amount of wealth on to me, there are and should be strings attached to that from the employer's side. In the US at least, there are already PLENTY of strings attached from the employee side. I can't see a doctor without a job. I can't borrow money without a job. I can't smoke grass, yadda yadda yadda. And I live in an "at will" state as well. Sorry. This is not nature we're dealing with. It's humans exploiting other humans. The "adapt or die" philosophy is not justified.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  Unless adapt means squeeze your own workers better and more efficiently. The adaptation here is not to switch or become the slave master yourself. It is to resist and fight the problematic system of exploitation in all available alternative ways. The "job" system is enforced at as low level as getting or not credit based on whether you get paid regularly or by whom. It is enforced by preferential rated for insurance and taxes for employers. Etc. Unfortunately the solution, which is organized resistance to these ideas, is easy to pervert or bribe away.
- imgabe 9y ago
  In terms of your ability as an individual to effect the situation, the difference between nature and other humans is mostly academic. What's going to be more successful: forcing millions of other humans to pay more for a less convenient service than the alternative or just learning a different way to make a living? > I can't see a doctor without a job. I wasn't aware doctors ran employment checks before seeing patients. I haven't been to the doctor in a long time, though. > I can't borrow money without a job. Uh, yeah? People who lend you money like to see that you have some means of paying it back. How is that relevant? > I can't smoke grass Depends on the job, but that is a legal issue. I doubt most employers would care if the law didn't force them to. > The "adapt or die" philosophy is not justified. This is not a philosophy, it's a statement of the reality of the situation. Circumstances change due to forces beyond your control This will happen to everyone at some point. You can stamp your feet and whine and moan and demand that someone else (Who exactly?) put them back the way they were, or you can figure out how to deal with them.
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    You're advising an individual to deal on their own with a systemic problem... Sounds callous and egotistical.
    - imgabe 9y ago
      Do you advise individuals to ignore problems and not deal with them? What do you propose as the alternative to dealing with a problem? Sit around and wait for somebody else to fix it for you? Driving, as a job, is going away. Not much is going to change that, nor should it. What is your advice for the drivers? "Sit on your hands, and hope that someone gives you some free money at some point"? Would they not be better served by taking some action to find a new line of work now?
      - socrates666 9y ago
        Support companies that care for their employees. Turn your back to those that exploit. I think it's called capitalism.

djsumdog 9y ago

Plus you start way at the bottom. I was sick of software and though about going into photography. But I realized I'd be shelling out a lot for equipment, schooling/certificates (unless I could find an apprenticeship). Then I'd have to build back up to a decent income. I knew another Computer Scientist who got his EMT certificate and worked in an ambulance service for two years, but ended up coming back to IT. If I personally leave the work force again, it would be after getting funding for a PhD. I'd gladly take a greatly reduced wage if I could be on my way towards teaching and researching in a university.

pmoriarty 9y ago

"Humans are capable of learning new things, but in general they don't like to. And they HATE when learning new things is not optional and is a requirement for continued employment." The attitude towards learning really depends on what one is learning, what the experience of learning is like, and why one is learning it. People tend to view learning very positively when they are learning something they are intensely interested in, that they feel is very important, and when the process of learning feels effortless and fun. When learning is painful and frustrating, when it's learning of something one is not at all interested in, that one feels indifferent or even hostile towards, that one thinks is unimportant, and when one feels forced to learn because of economic or other considerations where the power dynamic is highly skewed against the learner, and where the learner has little control over what and how they learn, yes, people tend not to like that.

ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
That's exactly what I was trying to say, but you said better. People LOVE learning skills in certain environments like a video game. But I think the serious consequences of NOT learning when you lose your job tends to make learning more difficult. So even though you want what you are learning to be important. If it is TOO IMPORTANT the scale tips in the opposite direction.
- candiodari 9y ago
  I feel like there is much psychological research that concludes the opposite of this. People love learning new things, if there's a clear reward, for instance being jobless and finding a new job because of a new skill. By contrast, people in a cushy job "settle in", and learn nothing, or even unlearn things over time. In addition to the research, one seems to find many stories of exactly this happening. Quite the opposite is true: people don't like learning UNLESS there is a clear reward. That's even true for the video game case, where it's simply that the reward is social rather than economical.
  - socrates666 9y ago
    I disagree. I was unemployed for a few months and I could not get myself to do the things I needed to in order to get the jobs I was interested in. There was so much anxiety associated with this that it triggered avoidance anxiety. What saved me is that studying the things I am naturally drawn to that have a lot of tangential offerings. My advice: find the biggest tree of knowledge that you're interested in and hope that the branches that you can reach will take care of you.