11 ms·

So after taking over one blogging platform and mothballing it (Blogger), then wiping out a host of 200X startups with Google Reader and _then_ killing Google Re

by harryf 9y ago

So after taking over one blogging platform and mothballing it (Blogger), then wiping out a host of 200X startups with Google Reader and _then_ killing Google Reader, which effectively killed RSS... after all that Google has woken up to the fact that the last source of independent content, that's not big-media-owned or stuck in a walled garden like FaceBook is Wordpress? And back in 2007ish I remember bloggers crying out to Google for help with some tools /APIs to help combat comment spam and Google basically ignoring it, leading to the eventual death of blog comments and blog based discussion. Looking at all that, it's great to finally see Google trying to support bloggers - the people that have delivered some of the most interesting content in their index. Or am I too jaded?

jxdxbx 9y ago
I wonder if anyone has numbers on RSS usage? There are way more RSS services, and better readers, now than when Google's mediocre product was dominant.
- syshum 9y ago
  Feedly is my home page, I check Feedly, HN, and Reddit for my news daily
- feriancek 9y ago
  I use slack as my RSS notifer
arenaninja 9y ago
Definitely not. My first thought seeing this was that Google wants to move in on Wordpress to embrace, extend and extinguish. Makes two jaded HN readers so far :)
- dba7dba 9y ago
  #MeThree Google now has WordPress as the next internet thing to embrace and than kill off. Miced feeling here. I hate WordPress but don't like Google doing it...
  - arenaninja 9y ago
    Whatever animosity we as developers may feel towards WordPress, it's a huge (perhaps the single largest) tech boon to small and medium-sized businesses. People launch online stores on it for the price of their domain name, hosting and some sweat. That is freaking cool; more projects should aspire to have that kind of impact
  - prepend 9y ago
    WordPress has a lot of hate, but what is the alternative for a non-programmer who wants to set up a site? There are tons of hosted/per month services, but not as much that’s just software based so you can host it yourself. Especially OSS.
    - sangnoir 9y ago
      <This being HN, insert smug response about something written in a language "superior" to PHP here. Perhaps a static site generator in Rust?>
- tareqak 9y ago
  Imagine if Google started pushing AMP harder into Wordpress after acquiring them...
  - Donzo 9y ago
    They are not acquiring the company that maintains the open source CMS known as WordPress, which is also estimated to power 24% of websites on the Internet. They are developing free, probably open source, plugins and themes for WordPress. Also they stated that they will help develop the supported AMP plugin. That's great. Google will make it much better. It needs help right now. I just don't understand why people are snubbing and thumbing their noses at Google for contributing their world-class resources to making free, open source software better. Sure, their interests align with getting a foothold in this ecosystem, but I don't think their play is to poison WordPress. Not that your wrong for being suspicious of their motives in general. They have broken some pretty cool stuff.
    - tareqak 9y ago
      Because contributing world-class resources to projects outside their ecosystem was sometimes the first step of how they and other companies acquired, ran into the ground, then shuttered otherwise successful businesses. This comment is not an attack against in you in any way, shape, or form, but an honest reply to your question.
      - Donzo 9y ago
        It's ok. I appreciate your position and your reply, as well as your desire to defend good things. I think it's important to note here that WordPress is a project, not a business or a company. I don't think Google is trying to break a community supported product that powers 24% of the web. Sure, build better doors and windows to their products. I don't see that as a bad thing. I happen to like Google, as do a large number of Internet publishers. Many of us will appreciate these efforts.
      - halflings 9y ago
        Can you give concrete examples of Google doing this? (acquiring a company just to shut it down, not using its technology)
volume 9y ago
Isn't Wordpress a different beast compared to Blogger in terms of it's history and the breakdown of the types of users? Does Google or any Megacorp act monolithically over the span of a decade? I have a conspiracy theory: These are myths writers from Wired and PC World want us to believe in so that they attract eyeballs. And now you sir, have recirculated these myths!
- harryf 9y ago
  This is certainly no conspiracy. More like inconsistent and ill-considered strategy over many years. I'm sure Google genuinely wants to help Wordpress here without making a power play; it would be very much in their interests to do so - thriving independent content platforms keep the web alive and diverse which in turn reinforces the value of search. It's just a shame that unintended consequences things like Google Reader over the years have done much to harm blogging. It could have been so much better...
stephen82 9y ago
The only reason I can think of this collaboration is so Google can take advantage of WordPress ecosystem so can force AMP down to our throats by simply ignoring the open letter many people addressed to a while ago. http://ampletter.org/ http://ampletter.org/
- devmunchies 9y ago
  My initial thought was that blogs tend to be funded by ads. So more blog = more ads.
  - chadwilken 9y ago
    What I want to know is why more blogs aren’t don’t resort to mining crypto using their users browser. It can be light weight and less intrusive than an add and you still get paid while embracing the future.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  It sounds like this is the bit here. Big websites have revenue needs to switch to AMP, since Google prioritizes them in search. WordPress blogs are most of the content that doesn't need to. But if Google can push AMP down the default install path for a WordPress blog, they manage to swallow the largest segment of content they aren't currently drawing in through other means.
- underwater 9y ago
  Agreed. Google seem to be very siloed internally. That manifests itself in confusing narratives like pushing PWAs (web) and Instant Apps (Java) simultaneously, or supporting both Chrome OS and Android. So instead of asking how this is good for Google as a company, you have to look at whether it's good for a single project within Google. PWAs and AMP seem like the most likely candidates.
remir 9y ago
It's more about Google helping Wordpress the CMS that powers 27% of the web than Google helping bloggers, IMO.
smnrchrds 9y ago
I still hate Google for killing Reader. I imagine its death was only a minor inconvenience in the US, but it was a sad day for internet freedom in Iran. At the time, Iran had for a couple of years implemented an internet censorship platform, blocking access to much of the internet. Nearly all international news agencies (CNN, BBC, NPR, etc.) were inaccessible; so were most of "web 2.0". Despite the widespread censorship, there was a large active community of independent blogs, non-sanctioned news sites, and small e-publications. The reason this structure could thrive was that even though these websites and weblogs were blocked, they were accessible through Google Reader. Because of the way Google services were implemented, the government could not block Reader without also blocking GMail and Google Search, which was not an option. As long as authors had a way (like a not-yet-blocked VPN or a friend outside the country they could email to) to post articles, people could read them, like them, comment on them, etc. Iran's censorship was to significant degree neutralized by this setup. The community was large, strong, and thriving. They even had their own jargon: the community was referred to as blogestan [1]; Google Reader was called Gooder, etc. And then, Google, for some (now obviously incorrect, but ultimately irrelevant to my point) financial calculation, decided to kill Reader. Just like that, overnight, the breadth of the web accessible to an average Iranian decreased by orders of magnitude. The entire community of freethinking authors and their followers disappeared. The only news websites remaining accessible were those sanctioned by the government, pushing the official narrative. Google put a large nail in the coffin of internet freedom in Iran. For that, I will never forgive them. [1] with the -stan suffix, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-stan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-stan
- junnan 9y ago
  > Because of the way Google services were implemented, the government could not block Reader without also blocking GMail and Google Search, which was not an option. It's interesting that they didn't block gmail and Google search. The Chinese government did that a couple of years ago, which surprisingly didn't cause widespread criticism except among the highly educated group.
  - z92 9y ago
    China and Russia can write their own google. Smaller nations can't.
e40 9y ago
I hate Wordpress and I'm deeply suspicious of Google motives, but I think this is a good thing. WP is very popular, but it is terrible from an engineering standpoint. My company decided to move to WP and every time we engage a WP developer or consulting company, and I give them my engineer requirements, most of them pass. I'm talking about things like command-line deployment, publish to test servers with git, things like that. So far, only one firm has not balked at this, and they seem to be very expensive. I don't think Google will put up with this type of thing. And, don't forget, WP is OSS. Blogger wasn't, so that's why the comparison to it are not apples to apples.
- goatlover 9y ago
  > . I'm talking about things like command-line deployment, publish to test servers with git, things like that. If you're wanting to do that, why not just use Drupal, which has drush and drupal console. Also, drupal.org uses git for all those third party modules and themes.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- seanwilson 9y ago
  > My company decided to move to WP and every time we engage a WP developer or consulting company, and I give them my engineer requirements, most of them pass. I'm talking about things like command-line deployment, publish to test servers with git, things like that. How common is this with programmers in general though? If you frequent hackernews, you get the impression everyone does these things but this isn't going to be an accurate representation.
- jbob2000 9y ago
  That's not a problem with Wordpress' engineering, infact it's a compliment. Many consulting companies work ONLY on wordpress because it is low technical. Seriously, all you need is an FTP client and any old web host and you're in business. You do not need command-line deployment and test servers with wordpress, that's the whole point.
kaspm 9y ago
Genuine question, in your opinion why did Google killing Reader effectively kill RSS? Why did people not move to alternative products? I was never a Google Reader user myself so I never needed to move.
- prepend 9y ago
  Not OP, but Google Reader subverted Google’s model of hosting things and getting good analytics / selling ads. It also went against Google+‘S whole idea of following feeds. In general, Google doesn’t want to encourage stuff that lives off their cloud. RSS is the best protocol for Facebook/G+ type stuff where you want feeds and updates, but it’s harder for central control. Google has done this with other products over the past decades. I remember when Blogger used to generate flat html that would publish to self-hosted web sites. And Google desktop that would index your local machine. Lots of stuff that fit into “organize the world’s information” mission and empowered users was discarded or deemphasized in favor of things that put Google between users and their data.

by harryf 9y ago

jxdxbx 9y ago

I wonder if anyone has numbers on RSS usage? There are way more RSS services, and better readers, now than when Google's mediocre product was dominant.

syshum 9y ago
Feedly is my home page, I check Feedly, HN, and Reddit for my news daily
feriancek 9y ago
I use slack as my RSS notifer

arenaninja 9y ago

Definitely not. My first thought seeing this was that Google wants to move in on Wordpress to embrace, extend and extinguish. Makes two jaded HN readers so far :)

dba7dba 9y ago
#MeThree Google now has WordPress as the next internet thing to embrace and than kill off. Miced feeling here. I hate WordPress but don't like Google doing it...
- arenaninja 9y ago
  Whatever animosity we as developers may feel towards WordPress, it's a huge (perhaps the single largest) tech boon to small and medium-sized businesses. People launch online stores on it for the price of their domain name, hosting and some sweat. That is freaking cool; more projects should aspire to have that kind of impact
- prepend 9y ago
  WordPress has a lot of hate, but what is the alternative for a non-programmer who wants to set up a site? There are tons of hosted/per month services, but not as much that’s just software based so you can host it yourself. Especially OSS.
  - sangnoir 9y ago
    <This being HN, insert smug response about something written in a language "superior" to PHP here. Perhaps a static site generator in Rust?>
tareqak 9y ago
Imagine if Google started pushing AMP harder into Wordpress after acquiring them...
- Donzo 9y ago
  They are not acquiring the company that maintains the open source CMS known as WordPress, which is also estimated to power 24% of websites on the Internet. They are developing free, probably open source, plugins and themes for WordPress. Also they stated that they will help develop the supported AMP plugin. That's great. Google will make it much better. It needs help right now. I just don't understand why people are snubbing and thumbing their noses at Google for contributing their world-class resources to making free, open source software better. Sure, their interests align with getting a foothold in this ecosystem, but I don't think their play is to poison WordPress. Not that your wrong for being suspicious of their motives in general. They have broken some pretty cool stuff.
  - tareqak 9y ago
    Because contributing world-class resources to projects outside their ecosystem was sometimes the first step of how they and other companies acquired, ran into the ground, then shuttered otherwise successful businesses. This comment is not an attack against in you in any way, shape, or form, but an honest reply to your question.
    - Donzo 9y ago
      It's ok. I appreciate your position and your reply, as well as your desire to defend good things. I think it's important to note here that WordPress is a project, not a business or a company. I don't think Google is trying to break a community supported product that powers 24% of the web. Sure, build better doors and windows to their products. I don't see that as a bad thing. I happen to like Google, as do a large number of Internet publishers. Many of us will appreciate these efforts.
    - halflings 9y ago
      Can you give concrete examples of Google doing this? (acquiring a company just to shut it down, not using its technology)

volume 9y ago

Isn't Wordpress a different beast compared to Blogger in terms of it's history and the breakdown of the types of users? Does Google or any Megacorp act monolithically over the span of a decade? I have a conspiracy theory: These are myths writers from Wired and PC World want us to believe in so that they attract eyeballs. And now you sir, have recirculated these myths!

harryf 9y ago
This is certainly no conspiracy. More like inconsistent and ill-considered strategy over many years. I'm sure Google genuinely wants to help Wordpress here without making a power play; it would be very much in their interests to do so - thriving independent content platforms keep the web alive and diverse which in turn reinforces the value of search. It's just a shame that unintended consequences things like Google Reader over the years have done much to harm blogging. It could have been so much better...

stephen82 9y ago

The only reason I can think of this collaboration is so Google can take advantage of WordPress ecosystem so can force AMP down to our throats by simply ignoring the open letter many people addressed to a while ago. http://ampletter.org/ http://ampletter.org/

devmunchies 9y ago
My initial thought was that blogs tend to be funded by ads. So more blog = more ads.
- chadwilken 9y ago
  What I want to know is why more blogs aren’t don’t resort to mining crypto using their users browser. It can be light weight and less intrusive than an add and you still get paid while embracing the future.
ocdtrekkie 9y ago
It sounds like this is the bit here. Big websites have revenue needs to switch to AMP, since Google prioritizes them in search. WordPress blogs are most of the content that doesn't need to. But if Google can push AMP down the default install path for a WordPress blog, they manage to swallow the largest segment of content they aren't currently drawing in through other means.
underwater 9y ago
Agreed. Google seem to be very siloed internally. That manifests itself in confusing narratives like pushing PWAs (web) and Instant Apps (Java) simultaneously, or supporting both Chrome OS and Android. So instead of asking how this is good for Google as a company, you have to look at whether it's good for a single project within Google. PWAs and AMP seem like the most likely candidates.

remir 9y ago

It's more about Google helping Wordpress the CMS that powers 27% of the web than Google helping bloggers, IMO.

smnrchrds 9y ago

I still hate Google for killing Reader. I imagine its death was only a minor inconvenience in the US, but it was a sad day for internet freedom in Iran. At the time, Iran had for a couple of years implemented an internet censorship platform, blocking access to much of the internet. Nearly all international news agencies (CNN, BBC, NPR, etc.) were inaccessible; so were most of "web 2.0". Despite the widespread censorship, there was a large active community of independent blogs, non-sanctioned news sites, and small e-publications. The reason this structure could thrive was that even though these websites and weblogs were blocked, they were accessible through Google Reader. Because of the way Google services were implemented, the government could not block Reader without also blocking GMail and Google Search, which was not an option. As long as authors had a way (like a not-yet-blocked VPN or a friend outside the country they could email to) to post articles, people could read them, like them, comment on them, etc. Iran's censorship was to significant degree neutralized by this setup. The community was large, strong, and thriving. They even had their own jargon: the community was referred to as blogestan [1]; Google Reader was called Gooder, etc. And then, Google, for some (now obviously incorrect, but ultimately irrelevant to my point) financial calculation, decided to kill Reader. Just like that, overnight, the breadth of the web accessible to an average Iranian decreased by orders of magnitude. The entire community of freethinking authors and their followers disappeared. The only news websites remaining accessible were those sanctioned by the government, pushing the official narrative. Google put a large nail in the coffin of internet freedom in Iran. For that, I will never forgive them. [1] with the -stan suffix, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-stan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-stan

junnan 9y ago
> Because of the way Google services were implemented, the government could not block Reader without also blocking GMail and Google Search, which was not an option. It's interesting that they didn't block gmail and Google search. The Chinese government did that a couple of years ago, which surprisingly didn't cause widespread criticism except among the highly educated group.
- z92 9y ago
  China and Russia can write their own google. Smaller nations can't.

e40 9y ago

I hate Wordpress and I'm deeply suspicious of Google motives, but I think this is a good thing. WP is very popular, but it is terrible from an engineering standpoint. My company decided to move to WP and every time we engage a WP developer or consulting company, and I give them my engineer requirements, most of them pass. I'm talking about things like command-line deployment, publish to test servers with git, things like that. So far, only one firm has not balked at this, and they seem to be very expensive. I don't think Google will put up with this type of thing. And, don't forget, WP is OSS. Blogger wasn't, so that's why the comparison to it are not apples to apples.

goatlover 9y ago
> . I'm talking about things like command-line deployment, publish to test servers with git, things like that. If you're wanting to do that, why not just use Drupal, which has drush and drupal console. Also, drupal.org uses git for all those third party modules and themes.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
seanwilson 9y ago
> My company decided to move to WP and every time we engage a WP developer or consulting company, and I give them my engineer requirements, most of them pass. I'm talking about things like command-line deployment, publish to test servers with git, things like that. How common is this with programmers in general though? If you frequent hackernews, you get the impression everyone does these things but this isn't going to be an accurate representation.
jbob2000 9y ago
That's not a problem with Wordpress' engineering, infact it's a compliment. Many consulting companies work ONLY on wordpress because it is low technical. Seriously, all you need is an FTP client and any old web host and you're in business. You do not need command-line deployment and test servers with wordpress, that's the whole point.

kaspm 9y ago

Genuine question, in your opinion why did Google killing Reader effectively kill RSS? Why did people not move to alternative products? I was never a Google Reader user myself so I never needed to move.

prepend 9y ago
Not OP, but Google Reader subverted Google’s model of hosting things and getting good analytics / selling ads. It also went against Google+‘S whole idea of following feeds. In general, Google doesn’t want to encourage stuff that lives off their cloud. RSS is the best protocol for Facebook/G+ type stuff where you want feeds and updates, but it’s harder for central control. Google has done this with other products over the past decades. I remember when Blogger used to generate flat html that would publish to self-hosted web sites. And Google desktop that would index your local machine. Lots of stuff that fit into “organize the world’s information” mission and empowered users was discarded or deemphasized in favor of things that put Google between users and their data.