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How is the web platform not insane? edit: PS, not downvoting anyone here. Just curious as to how other people square html5+es5/6+css2/3 as anything more than

How is the web platform not insane? edit: PS, not downvoting anyone here. Just curious as to how other people square html5+es5/6+css2/3 as anything more than an engineering failure and a major waste of human effort. Having to put a considerable amount of reading, googling, continuing ed--or in some cases even a college degree--just to technically layout a page (technically--not getting into aesthetics, readability, flow, taste, etc.) is insane if you ask me.

RobertRoberts 9y ago
Because in theory, you can build an application that will work on nearly every device in the world? Think phones, desktop computers, tablets, watches, tvs. With every conceivable operating system going back many years. And you don't have to install or update any software, worry about data loss, accessing the same data from multiple devices anywhere in the world. Seems like there's a lot of good non-crazy reasons for the web to have taken this turn. Is it perfect? Nope, but it's pretty damn cool that I can login to a computer anywhere, put a point on a map, and have it show up on my phone, and I am privacy nut. :P
- jstewartmobile 9y ago
  If we're getting into application development, we have a sandboxed VM that a) requires megabytes of npm/webpack/jquery/bootstrap mystery meat to paper over all of the cross-platform and form-factor potholes, and b) allows everyone and his brother to track your behavior in real time. Go to practically any major content website and poke around in the developer console. Check the cookies, the constant ajax requests, the payloads, the file sizes, etc. It would be one thing if this were all for the sake of compensating creators and good user experience, but I don't see that. I see a dystopia where Google/Facebook/Amazon gets the sandwich, SV gets the crust, and everyone else gets the shaft. There have been many browser forks where some heroic soul tries to strip a few of the more obvious f-yous out of Chromium or Firefox. They all eventually give up. When even the #3 company is blasting through half a billion dollars a year to put mr robot bullshit in their browser, any one-man effort in that direction will be drinking from the fire hose.
  - RobertRoberts 9y ago
    So you agree the web is a good platform for mass global access... gotcha.
    - jstewartmobile 9y ago
      The web is a good platform for mass global surveillance and control. If that still counts as "pretty damn cool", then yeah, you got me!
      - RobertRoberts 9y ago
        "Gotcha" means "I understand you", its not an accusation or a condemnation. Technology is not a moral issue, how people use it is. You seem to be confusing the two.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        > "Gotcha" means "I understand you", its not an accusation or a condemnation. It can also mean, roughly, «j’accuse»—or perhaps, “I have just proven the accusation against you”—so it can be ambiguous when context doesn’t make the intent clear.
        RobertRoberts 9y ago
        Maybe to a non native english speaker the context could be misconstrued.
        jstewartmobile 9y ago
        So stating that modern web technologies were very badly done is moralizing? This isn't physics or chemistry. We're talking about webshit here. Perhaps HTML/CSS back in the CERN days could be counted as technology. The rest of it--from the curly braces in JavaScript down to the --webkit/--moz prefixes in CSS--is pure politics! Politically speaking, strict top-down control is typically not so great. With the IPv4+NAT+Client/Server model that we have, along with the browser standards and software being dominated by Google and Apple, strict top-down control is what we have.

RobertRoberts 9y ago

Because in theory, you can build an application that will work on nearly every device in the world? Think phones, desktop computers, tablets, watches, tvs. With every conceivable operating system going back many years. And you don't have to install or update any software, worry about data loss, accessing the same data from multiple devices anywhere in the world. Seems like there's a lot of good non-crazy reasons for the web to have taken this turn. Is it perfect? Nope, but it's pretty damn cool that I can login to a computer anywhere, put a point on a map, and have it show up on my phone, and I am privacy nut. :P

jstewartmobile 9y ago
If we're getting into application development, we have a sandboxed VM that a) requires megabytes of npm/webpack/jquery/bootstrap mystery meat to paper over all of the cross-platform and form-factor potholes, and b) allows everyone and his brother to track your behavior in real time. Go to practically any major content website and poke around in the developer console. Check the cookies, the constant ajax requests, the payloads, the file sizes, etc. It would be one thing if this were all for the sake of compensating creators and good user experience, but I don't see that. I see a dystopia where Google/Facebook/Amazon gets the sandwich, SV gets the crust, and everyone else gets the shaft. There have been many browser forks where some heroic soul tries to strip a few of the more obvious f-yous out of Chromium or Firefox. They all eventually give up. When even the #3 company is blasting through half a billion dollars a year to put mr robot bullshit in their browser, any one-man effort in that direction will be drinking from the fire hose.
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  So you agree the web is a good platform for mass global access... gotcha.
  - jstewartmobile 9y ago
    The web is a good platform for mass global surveillance and control. If that still counts as "pretty damn cool", then yeah, you got me!
    - RobertRoberts 9y ago
      "Gotcha" means "I understand you", its not an accusation or a condemnation. Technology is not a moral issue, how people use it is. You seem to be confusing the two.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > "Gotcha" means "I understand you", its not an accusation or a condemnation. It can also mean, roughly, «j’accuse»—or perhaps, “I have just proven the accusation against you”—so it can be ambiguous when context doesn’t make the intent clear.
        RobertRoberts 9y ago
        Maybe to a non native english speaker the context could be misconstrued.
      - jstewartmobile 9y ago
        So stating that modern web technologies were very badly done is moralizing? This isn't physics or chemistry. We're talking about webshit here. Perhaps HTML/CSS back in the CERN days could be counted as technology. The rest of it--from the curly braces in JavaScript down to the --webkit/--moz prefixes in CSS--is pure politics! Politically speaking, strict top-down control is typically not so great. With the IPv4+NAT+Client/Server model that we have, along with the browser standards and software being dominated by Google and Apple, strict top-down control is what we have.