6 ms·

Can you set your own prices?

by tabeth 9y ago

carlmr 9y ago
Bingo!
aianus 9y ago
I can ask, but they won't agree to them or send me any rides. Is that so different from, say, an unskilled landscaper asking for $50/h and being passed over for the long line of other landscapers willing to work for $10/h? I don't think the definition of being self-employed or being a contractor includes pricing power.
- tabeth 9y ago
  How do you ask or set the price you want to charge in the Uber app?
- drivingmenuts 9y ago
  A self-employed person can make the argument to their client that they are worth the premium price and it's up to the client to determine whether or not they are. An Uber driver has no such opportunity to interact with the client in that manner.
- manicdee 9y ago
  If other Uner drivers are asking $10/h and you are asking $12/h does Uner still send you fares? Are you functionally able to set your rates or is this only a theoretical thing? If you can’t functionally set your rates you aren’t really self-employed.
  - aianus 9y ago
    I can set a limit buy on SPY at $0.01 but it will never be filled. That doesn't mean my limit orders aren't real or that I'm not really a market participant. Likewise I can contact Uber and tell them I want $5/mile and they will say no and then tell me I can continue to accept rides at the bid or stay home. Finally I can work for Juno, or by getting my own insurance and coding my own app, or for Lyft, or a mixture of the above. This is absolutely distinct from any real employment I've ever had.
    - tabeth 9y ago
      I'm not sure if you're being obtuse, but there are no equivalents to a setting a limit buy on SPY with Uber. You keep on saying "ask Uber", but there is no mechanism to actually set a price, which makes the rest of your hypothetical irrelevant. Furthermore, your examples are pretty dumb -- what if you want to work for less to have more rides to make it up in volume? You couldn't do that either. The fact that you cannot set prices means you're not self employed. The fact that you can set your own hours and use an app is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that you cannot dictate your own price using Uber or Lyft. Uber drivers are employees, and Britain agrees [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/10/uber-loses-appeal-employment-rights-workers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/10/uber-lose...
      - aianus 9y ago
        I am not an employee of Uber. I accept their bids for rides when I want to and that’s it. I have no commitment or responsibility to them besides that ride and vice versa. Also, as noted in your article, regular taxi drivers in the UK have always been considered self employed contractors despite also having no ability to change the regulated meter rate. So this whole pricing argument is invalid and inconsistent with historical interpretations. Another example is doctors here in Canada who bill out to the government at a fixed price schedule. Are they not self employed either? After all, they all bill the same entity and are not allowed to set their own prices.
        tabeth 9y ago
        > I am not an employee of Uber. I accept their bids for rides when I want to and that’s it. I have no commitment or responsibility to them besides that ride and vice versa. Yes, you have no commitment to them except following the very stringent rules and regulations set by them, without exception, when you decide to work for them. > So this whole pricing argument is invalid and inconsistent with historical interpretations. Merely being not being able to set your own price is not what makes you an employee. The distinction is a tax one, concerning benefits among other things. All "historical interpretations" are ultimately arbitrary like the very distinction between self-employed vs. employed. In the case of Britain, their opinion is pretty clear on this in respect to Uber. > Another example is doctors here in Canada who bill out to the government at a fixed price schedule. Are they not self employed either? After all, they all bill the same entity and are not allowed to set their own prices. I know nothing of Canadian doctors to say one way or another. Regardless, the distinction between being an independent contractor vs. an employee and being "self employed" or not are two different conversations. You can be legally an employee and be self employed, e.g. an entrepreneur. You can also be self-employed yet not be an employee, e.g. an independent contractor. Uber is attempting to argue that its workers are both self employed and independent contractors, yet lack the full autonomy that someone in that position would have, notably, being able to set one's own prices and work environment. A hypothetical service where you set your own price and profile, ala eBay + Thumbtack and are chosen would be the scenario that Uber supposes its drivers are already in. --- This pretty much summarizes it: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=4a493c30-578d-4bc7-83d7-96c4d910e5e2 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=4a493c30-578d...

Can you set your own prices?

by tabeth 9y ago

Can you set your own prices?

carlmr 9y ago

Bingo!

aianus 9y ago

I can ask, but they won't agree to them or send me any rides. Is that so different from, say, an unskilled landscaper asking for $50/h and being passed over for the long line of other landscapers willing to work for $10/h? I don't think the definition of being self-employed or being a contractor includes pricing power.

tabeth 9y ago
How do you ask or set the price you want to charge in the Uber app?
drivingmenuts 9y ago
A self-employed person can make the argument to their client that they are worth the premium price and it's up to the client to determine whether or not they are. An Uber driver has no such opportunity to interact with the client in that manner.
manicdee 9y ago
If other Uner drivers are asking $10/h and you are asking $12/h does Uner still send you fares? Are you functionally able to set your rates or is this only a theoretical thing? If you can’t functionally set your rates you aren’t really self-employed.
- aianus 9y ago
  I can set a limit buy on SPY at $0.01 but it will never be filled. That doesn't mean my limit orders aren't real or that I'm not really a market participant. Likewise I can contact Uber and tell them I want $5/mile and they will say no and then tell me I can continue to accept rides at the bid or stay home. Finally I can work for Juno, or by getting my own insurance and coding my own app, or for Lyft, or a mixture of the above. This is absolutely distinct from any real employment I've ever had.
  - tabeth 9y ago
    I'm not sure if you're being obtuse, but there are no equivalents to a setting a limit buy on SPY with Uber. You keep on saying "ask Uber", but there is no mechanism to actually set a price, which makes the rest of your hypothetical irrelevant. Furthermore, your examples are pretty dumb -- what if you want to work for less to have more rides to make it up in volume? You couldn't do that either. The fact that you cannot set prices means you're not self employed. The fact that you can set your own hours and use an app is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that you cannot dictate your own price using Uber or Lyft. Uber drivers are employees, and Britain agrees [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/10/uber-loses-appeal-employment-rights-workers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/10/uber-lose...
    - aianus 9y ago
      I am not an employee of Uber. I accept their bids for rides when I want to and that’s it. I have no commitment or responsibility to them besides that ride and vice versa. Also, as noted in your article, regular taxi drivers in the UK have always been considered self employed contractors despite also having no ability to change the regulated meter rate. So this whole pricing argument is invalid and inconsistent with historical interpretations. Another example is doctors here in Canada who bill out to the government at a fixed price schedule. Are they not self employed either? After all, they all bill the same entity and are not allowed to set their own prices.
      - tabeth 9y ago
        > I am not an employee of Uber. I accept their bids for rides when I want to and that’s it. I have no commitment or responsibility to them besides that ride and vice versa. Yes, you have no commitment to them except following the very stringent rules and regulations set by them, without exception, when you decide to work for them. > So this whole pricing argument is invalid and inconsistent with historical interpretations. Merely being not being able to set your own price is not what makes you an employee. The distinction is a tax one, concerning benefits among other things. All "historical interpretations" are ultimately arbitrary like the very distinction between self-employed vs. employed. In the case of Britain, their opinion is pretty clear on this in respect to Uber. > Another example is doctors here in Canada who bill out to the government at a fixed price schedule. Are they not self employed either? After all, they all bill the same entity and are not allowed to set their own prices. I know nothing of Canadian doctors to say one way or another. Regardless, the distinction between being an independent contractor vs. an employee and being "self employed" or not are two different conversations. You can be legally an employee and be self employed, e.g. an entrepreneur. You can also be self-employed yet not be an employee, e.g. an independent contractor. Uber is attempting to argue that its workers are both self employed and independent contractors, yet lack the full autonomy that someone in that position would have, notably, being able to set one's own prices and work environment. A hypothetical service where you set your own price and profile, ala eBay + Thumbtack and are chosen would be the scenario that Uber supposes its drivers are already in. --- This pretty much summarizes it: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=4a493c30-578d-4bc7-83d7-96c4d910e5e2 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=4a493c30-578d...