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To me it didn't look like they tried too hard to take the picture from the same angle etc. I remember a person from the old West Germany saying to me that they

To me it didn't look like they tried too hard to take the picture from the same angle etc. I remember a person from the old West Germany saying to me that they'd like that wall back twice as high and the same depth underground because of all reunification cost and the entitled attitude of 'osties'

Narretz 9y ago
You'll also find old Eastern Germany people say they want the wall back because they had it better in the DDR. Or at least they think they did.
- FabHK 9y ago
  Known in German as "Ostalgie" ((Ost = east) + (Nostalgie = nostalgia))
- executesorder66 9y ago
  They did have it better. Which is why that want to go back. Edit: or should I rather put it this way: They have lived in the GDR, and have years of firsthand life experience of what it was like. And they also live in the reunited Germany. And they also have years of firsthand life experience of what that is like. Why would they prefer the worse option? (hint, they won't) And why would they think the worse option was better, if they have personally experienced both in detail? Who are you to say that what they think is wrong?
  - SmellyGeekBoy 9y ago
    Because "the good old days" maybe? Seems to be a common sentiment among older generations everywhere.
    - executesorder66 9y ago
      The term "Ostalgie" was coined in 1992. German reunification was in 1990. It took 2 years to coin a term that described a feeling people had already felt. Not 2 decades. So I don't agree with your theory at all.
  - rospaya 9y ago
    That's very common in Eastern Europe, and it's mostly tied to nostalgia, not any rational argument. People liked it better because they were younger, you didn't have immigrants, pesky young people and their facebooks. It's a similar sentiment to brexiteers, who have a vision of some old England that wasn't actually good.
    - yorwba 9y ago
      It sounds to me like people who don't like immigrants, pesky young people and their facebooks did have it better (in their eyes). Whether something is good or not is not objectively measurable, everyone has their own opinion. It doesn't seem outlandish to me that people who were negatively affected by some change would prefer the way things were before, and I don't think you can say that they are wrong to want things to change back. EDIT: To clarify, I'm not endorsing these viewpoints, I just want to point out that the people who hold them aren't stupid or mistaken about the "good old times", they just have a different definition of "good". So from their perspective, revisionism is perfectly justified.
  - FabHK 9y ago
    It's a very complicated and multifaceted question, obviously. One data point that sticks in my mind is that after reunification, the birth rate in the east dropped by half.
  - cookiecaper 9y ago
    Upvoted because smug dismissiveness of the other side's POV is not only extremely annoying, but counterproductive. There is no doubt that substantial political and social upheavals, even those which we acknowledge as highly positive in the aggregate, will have some negative effects for some people. Society develops meticulous legal and social processes for political change to ensure that these balances have been well-considered, despite being forced to acknowledge that we don't have a magic wand that will make the world a place of unanimous equity and unlimited cotton candy. We dismiss the concerns and sentiments of others at our own peril. Concern and sentiment generally arise from legitimate issues. We can't solve every problem or fix every complaint, but smugly discounting the counter-discourse as the ramblings of idiots and yokels generates a massive liability which always come back to bite. "Those morons are too dumb to not vote against their own best interests" is no different than "those morons are just too dumb to learn the right way to use my program." If some people believe that their personal balance of plusses and minuses was better under the old order, who are we to tell them that they're just too stupid or naive to understand their own generalized quality of life?
NameNickHN 9y ago
> To me it didn't look like they tried too hard to take the picture from the same angle etc. And to me it looked pretty spot on. I imagine it's pretty hard to find the exact same position after twenty years. > I remember a person from the old West Germany saying to me that they'd like that wall back twice as high and the same depth underground because of all reunification cost and the entitled attitude of 'osties' That sounds like a very selfish person. Freedom for our east german brothers and sisters, unless I have to contribute...
- carlmr 9y ago
  >And to me it looked pretty spot on. I imagine it's pretty hard to find the exact same position after twenty years. There are digital cameras and laptops. There's really no excuse for not comparing directly and seeing if you got it at least kind of right. >That sounds like a very selfish person. Freedom for our east german brothers and sisters, unless I have to contribute... It's not like people were completely opposed to it. But now after so much time has passed we're still paying an extra tax that exclusively benefits the eastern states. And if you read the local newspapers in Eastern Germany you still hear a lot of complaints about "Wessies" (Western Germans). It kind of breeds resentment if you put your hands in someone elses pockets for 28 years, and still complain you're not getting enough. What we need to do is wean the East off of these extra taxes. There are large parts of Western Germany which have just as many unemployment problems, and didn't get any of the infrastructure investments.
  - sgift 9y ago
    > It's not like people were completely opposed to it. But now after so much time has passed we're still paying an extra tax that exclusively benefits the eastern states. Which tax would that be? If you mean the Solidaritätszuschlag: It isn't actually bound to any task and is used for more or less everything the government wants, not to help East Germany (just like any other tax). It is also payed by people in both West and East Germany. Just one of the many stupid myths people tell themselves on both sides that breeds sentiment.
matt4077 9y ago
I'm from the former west, and now live in Berlin (less than a minute walk to one of the photo locations). The east/west cultural conflict was a thing in the 90s. But today, nobody cares anymore. Berlin, and one or two other large cities in the east have become vibrant centres of culture, attractive to young people from all over Europe. The former east still lags economically. But by and large, the investments helped to catch up, and the economy has been doing well everywhere, making people less anxious about their taxes going to "undeserving" people. But, of course, history never ends: now we have xenophobes protesting against their taxes helping refugees from Syria. Especially in the former east (go figure). The same dynamic is also playing out in Poland and Hungary: two countries massively profiting from EU membership, with large parts of the population turning their backs on the EU, and the values it stands for.
- denzil_correa 9y ago
  > The east/west cultural conflict was a thing in the 90s. But today, nobody cares anymore. The recent rise of AfD has been fueled by the resentment of the former East [0]. The vote share of the AfD has strong correlations to the east-west divide. It might be worthwhile to understand the reasons behind this pattern. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/28/is-germanys-election-result-the-revenge-of-the-east https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/28/is-germanys-el...
- majewsky 9y ago
  > The east/west cultural conflict was a thing in the 90s. But today, nobody cares anymore. Since you live in Berlin, I suggest you take a daytrip to the villages around Berlin, or maybe down to the Lausitz (Cottbus, Hoyerswerda, Bautzen, etc.). You'll find plenty of people who care. The GDR was an oppressive regime towards its critics, but if you managed to keep your head down, you could live a very stable life there. Upon starting work at 15, you had reasonable confidence that you could work at the same place until retirement if you wanted to. Until, of course, the reunification happened, and large parts of the East-German economy were flushed down the toilet for not many good reasons. Now you have a huge number of people who suddenly have to change jobs every few years to keep themselves afloat, and those (and their children!) are the ones voting for the AfD. Source: I know some of those people.
woodpanel 9y ago
Truth is, German Reunification was never an aim of West German politicians until it suddenly appeared as an option at the end of the 1980s. And even then, half of the political spectrum was strongly against it (eg Gerhard Schröder, who later became German Chancellor). Before that, anyone who argued in favor of reunification was eclipsed into the fringe. Having been bombarded with arguments against reunification for decades by at least one half of the spectrum, will have shaped the views of many. A lot of people felt unease about an American president pushing so visibly for it, as Reagan did. For the German Easterners it must be said, they were the only "revolutionaries", the only Germans who risked anything and showed courage and actually fought for freedom. Yet, there is almost no official commemoration of it. Partly because many Easterners were part of the system. Partly because the West-German left hated to be reminded of their own amorality. Thus, "reunification costs" are only a translucent argument. As if the redistribution policies already existing in West-Germany weren't the real culprit why the West-German worker was left so little of his wage and why the job market was stagnating at best for years.
- golergka 9y ago
  > Partly because the West-German left hated to be reminded of their own amorality. What amorality are you talking about?
  - woodpanel 9y ago
    Being against reunification. Being reminded of the failed experiment across the just deleted border. Being reminded that that failed experiment should have given them some doubts about their doctrines. Being reminded that in the most remarkable story of human progress in contemporary history [1], not only were they not part of the heroes - they were complicit agents in defending the status quo of an unfree Eastern Germany. Which is why the SPD (with a few exceptions) and the Greens have never set foot in the East as did the conservative CDU. [1] that remarkable story of course includes the whole of Eastern Europe and that human progress may only be equated to the rise of China (although not politically).
- ema 9y ago
  Many of the people who started the protests in East Germany did not have the aim of reunification either. Their goal was to reform and open up the system. Only later when the protests had swelled up in numbers did the slogan of "Wir sind ein Volk" appear.
tCfD 9y ago
Think about the less obvious challenges involved with getting a picture to match up with an older version of the same shot. Simply looking at an old photo does not always tell you much about the lens, focal length and aperture used, or the size of the negative. Without being able to match these with confidence, or even if you know what the match is, you may not be able to procure the necessary equipment to replicate the perspective of the shot taken with it. The old pictures were likely taken by multiple photographers for multiple occasions using a wide variety of camera/glass makes, models and formats, while a modern photojournalist compiling photos for an article will likely have access to a comparably narrow spectrum of equipment. Also it may not be possible to stand in the same place due to new construction in the position of the old shot.

Narretz 9y ago

You'll also find old Eastern Germany people say they want the wall back because they had it better in the DDR. Or at least they think they did.

FabHK 9y ago
Known in German as "Ostalgie" ((Ost = east) + (Nostalgie = nostalgia))
executesorder66 9y ago
They did have it better. Which is why that want to go back. Edit: or should I rather put it this way: They have lived in the GDR, and have years of firsthand life experience of what it was like. And they also live in the reunited Germany. And they also have years of firsthand life experience of what that is like. Why would they prefer the worse option? (hint, they won't) And why would they think the worse option was better, if they have personally experienced both in detail? Who are you to say that what they think is wrong?
- SmellyGeekBoy 9y ago
  Because "the good old days" maybe? Seems to be a common sentiment among older generations everywhere.
  - executesorder66 9y ago
    The term "Ostalgie" was coined in 1992. German reunification was in 1990. It took 2 years to coin a term that described a feeling people had already felt. Not 2 decades. So I don't agree with your theory at all.
- rospaya 9y ago
  That's very common in Eastern Europe, and it's mostly tied to nostalgia, not any rational argument. People liked it better because they were younger, you didn't have immigrants, pesky young people and their facebooks. It's a similar sentiment to brexiteers, who have a vision of some old England that wasn't actually good.
  - yorwba 9y ago
    It sounds to me like people who don't like immigrants, pesky young people and their facebooks did have it better (in their eyes). Whether something is good or not is not objectively measurable, everyone has their own opinion. It doesn't seem outlandish to me that people who were negatively affected by some change would prefer the way things were before, and I don't think you can say that they are wrong to want things to change back. EDIT: To clarify, I'm not endorsing these viewpoints, I just want to point out that the people who hold them aren't stupid or mistaken about the "good old times", they just have a different definition of "good". So from their perspective, revisionism is perfectly justified.
- FabHK 9y ago
  It's a very complicated and multifaceted question, obviously. One data point that sticks in my mind is that after reunification, the birth rate in the east dropped by half.
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  Upvoted because smug dismissiveness of the other side's POV is not only extremely annoying, but counterproductive. There is no doubt that substantial political and social upheavals, even those which we acknowledge as highly positive in the aggregate, will have some negative effects for some people. Society develops meticulous legal and social processes for political change to ensure that these balances have been well-considered, despite being forced to acknowledge that we don't have a magic wand that will make the world a place of unanimous equity and unlimited cotton candy. We dismiss the concerns and sentiments of others at our own peril. Concern and sentiment generally arise from legitimate issues. We can't solve every problem or fix every complaint, but smugly discounting the counter-discourse as the ramblings of idiots and yokels generates a massive liability which always come back to bite. "Those morons are too dumb to not vote against their own best interests" is no different than "those morons are just too dumb to learn the right way to use my program." If some people believe that their personal balance of plusses and minuses was better under the old order, who are we to tell them that they're just too stupid or naive to understand their own generalized quality of life?

NameNickHN 9y ago

> To me it didn't look like they tried too hard to take the picture from the same angle etc. And to me it looked pretty spot on. I imagine it's pretty hard to find the exact same position after twenty years. > I remember a person from the old West Germany saying to me that they'd like that wall back twice as high and the same depth underground because of all reunification cost and the entitled attitude of 'osties' That sounds like a very selfish person. Freedom for our east german brothers and sisters, unless I have to contribute...

carlmr 9y ago
>And to me it looked pretty spot on. I imagine it's pretty hard to find the exact same position after twenty years. There are digital cameras and laptops. There's really no excuse for not comparing directly and seeing if you got it at least kind of right. >That sounds like a very selfish person. Freedom for our east german brothers and sisters, unless I have to contribute... It's not like people were completely opposed to it. But now after so much time has passed we're still paying an extra tax that exclusively benefits the eastern states. And if you read the local newspapers in Eastern Germany you still hear a lot of complaints about "Wessies" (Western Germans). It kind of breeds resentment if you put your hands in someone elses pockets for 28 years, and still complain you're not getting enough. What we need to do is wean the East off of these extra taxes. There are large parts of Western Germany which have just as many unemployment problems, and didn't get any of the infrastructure investments.
- sgift 9y ago
  > It's not like people were completely opposed to it. But now after so much time has passed we're still paying an extra tax that exclusively benefits the eastern states. Which tax would that be? If you mean the Solidaritätszuschlag: It isn't actually bound to any task and is used for more or less everything the government wants, not to help East Germany (just like any other tax). It is also payed by people in both West and East Germany. Just one of the many stupid myths people tell themselves on both sides that breeds sentiment.

matt4077 9y ago

I'm from the former west, and now live in Berlin (less than a minute walk to one of the photo locations). The east/west cultural conflict was a thing in the 90s. But today, nobody cares anymore. Berlin, and one or two other large cities in the east have become vibrant centres of culture, attractive to young people from all over Europe. The former east still lags economically. But by and large, the investments helped to catch up, and the economy has been doing well everywhere, making people less anxious about their taxes going to "undeserving" people. But, of course, history never ends: now we have xenophobes protesting against their taxes helping refugees from Syria. Especially in the former east (go figure). The same dynamic is also playing out in Poland and Hungary: two countries massively profiting from EU membership, with large parts of the population turning their backs on the EU, and the values it stands for.

denzil_correa 9y ago
> The east/west cultural conflict was a thing in the 90s. But today, nobody cares anymore. The recent rise of AfD has been fueled by the resentment of the former East [0]. The vote share of the AfD has strong correlations to the east-west divide. It might be worthwhile to understand the reasons behind this pattern. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/28/is-germanys-election-result-the-revenge-of-the-east https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/28/is-germanys-el...
majewsky 9y ago
> The east/west cultural conflict was a thing in the 90s. But today, nobody cares anymore. Since you live in Berlin, I suggest you take a daytrip to the villages around Berlin, or maybe down to the Lausitz (Cottbus, Hoyerswerda, Bautzen, etc.). You'll find plenty of people who care. The GDR was an oppressive regime towards its critics, but if you managed to keep your head down, you could live a very stable life there. Upon starting work at 15, you had reasonable confidence that you could work at the same place until retirement if you wanted to. Until, of course, the reunification happened, and large parts of the East-German economy were flushed down the toilet for not many good reasons. Now you have a huge number of people who suddenly have to change jobs every few years to keep themselves afloat, and those (and their children!) are the ones voting for the AfD. Source: I know some of those people.

woodpanel 9y ago

Truth is, German Reunification was never an aim of West German politicians until it suddenly appeared as an option at the end of the 1980s. And even then, half of the political spectrum was strongly against it (eg Gerhard Schröder, who later became German Chancellor). Before that, anyone who argued in favor of reunification was eclipsed into the fringe. Having been bombarded with arguments against reunification for decades by at least one half of the spectrum, will have shaped the views of many. A lot of people felt unease about an American president pushing so visibly for it, as Reagan did. For the German Easterners it must be said, they were the only "revolutionaries", the only Germans who risked anything and showed courage and actually fought for freedom. Yet, there is almost no official commemoration of it. Partly because many Easterners were part of the system. Partly because the West-German left hated to be reminded of their own amorality. Thus, "reunification costs" are only a translucent argument. As if the redistribution policies already existing in West-Germany weren't the real culprit why the West-German worker was left so little of his wage and why the job market was stagnating at best for years.

golergka 9y ago
> Partly because the West-German left hated to be reminded of their own amorality. What amorality are you talking about?
- woodpanel 9y ago
  Being against reunification. Being reminded of the failed experiment across the just deleted border. Being reminded that that failed experiment should have given them some doubts about their doctrines. Being reminded that in the most remarkable story of human progress in contemporary history [1], not only were they not part of the heroes - they were complicit agents in defending the status quo of an unfree Eastern Germany. Which is why the SPD (with a few exceptions) and the Greens have never set foot in the East as did the conservative CDU. [1] that remarkable story of course includes the whole of Eastern Europe and that human progress may only be equated to the rise of China (although not politically).
ema 9y ago
Many of the people who started the protests in East Germany did not have the aim of reunification either. Their goal was to reform and open up the system. Only later when the protests had swelled up in numbers did the slogan of "Wir sind ein Volk" appear.

tCfD 9y ago

Think about the less obvious challenges involved with getting a picture to match up with an older version of the same shot. Simply looking at an old photo does not always tell you much about the lens, focal length and aperture used, or the size of the negative. Without being able to match these with confidence, or even if you know what the match is, you may not be able to procure the necessary equipment to replicate the perspective of the shot taken with it. The old pictures were likely taken by multiple photographers for multiple occasions using a wide variety of camera/glass makes, models and formats, while a modern photojournalist compiling photos for an article will likely have access to a comparably narrow spectrum of equipment. Also it may not be possible to stand in the same place due to new construction in the position of the old shot.