4 ms·

MLM scams are massive in the Philippines right now as well. The baffling thing to me is, when I've laid out how this works to friends talking about joining up,

by ciguy 9y ago

MLM scams are massive in the Philippines right now as well. The baffling thing to me is, when I've laid out how this works to friends talking about joining up, they agree with the math but join anyway! It's like they need something to believe in subconsciously even if their logical mind knows it's bullshit. Maybe these schemes really sell hope to those that need something to believe in, replacing religion on some level. Except in this case it's economic hope, the belief that if they work hard enough they will be rewarded. I've noticed a trend amongst participants. The people at the top are straight up psychopaths looking to exploit human greed for their own gain. But the lower level minions are usually simply poor. They have very little to lose, so why not try it? Ultimately they usually end up poorer, but there's always the story of Bob and Betty who made a million dollars last year and came from nothing to be top sellers.

vog 9y ago
> It's like they need something to believe in subconsciously even if their logical mind knows it's bullshit. A simpler explanation is that they just love to gamble. Essentially, they bet on ending up in a higher position of the pyramid.
- ciguy 9y ago
  Then you haven't experienced the religious fervor with which they defend the scheme once they're hooked. It's definitely more like a cult than any form of gambling addiction and once inside the relentless brainwashing begins. Many of these schemes even have weekly "meetups" aka services akin to those of religious congregations. These usually include an iconic leader who admonishes the minions for the coming week and encourages them to cut out any family or friends who dare to question them.
  - bane 9y ago
    Even here in the U.S., I've known several people, with good stable money making careers to give it all up and start selling vitamins or beauty care products or whatever. It's truly bizarre and the desperate sell-to-everyone-all-the-time behavior that seems to appear afterwards drives all their friends away. I'm not sure what these schemes seem to be exploiting but man if it doesn't smell like religious radicalization.
    - vog 9y ago
      I wonder if there is any way to redirect all that dedication to something that is constructive and good for society.
      - yorwba 9y ago
        Maybe an education pyramid scheme? You receive training in useful skills, but only if you keep teaching your newly acquired knowledge to multiple other people.
        uoaei 9y ago
        This sounds like an interesting way to disseminate a lot of incorrect "facts" very quickly with almost no traceability.
        yorwba 9y ago
        You mean like a chain letter? Usually, incorrect "facts" aren't incentivizing enough on their own to keep sharing them, which is why most of those viral memes spread quickly and die out quickly. I was thinking more in terms of a long-term commitment that provides enough benefits on its own to offset the time and effort spent by each participant on spreading it to others.
jannes 9y ago
Even in the US there are large MLM scams. Just look at Herbalife. They say they stopped some of the bad practices after the FCA investigation, but how likely is it that they changed a pyramid scheme into a non-pyramid scheme overnight?
- ghostcluster 9y ago
  Amway is another example. It has established close ties to the US government to help ensure its survival, even though it is another parasitic multilevel marketing pyramid scam. Like biological parasites, the long lasting ones seem to have optimized the level of damage and chaos they cause, along with maintaining protection mechanisms (lobbying, political donations, corruption) that enable them to continue to survive and be incredibly lucrative to their founders.
  - tialaramex 9y ago
    In the UK Amway's legal settlement requires them to publish the compensation tiers and how many people are in each tier. So you can see at a glance that almost everybody involved gets nothing. It doesn't stop people joining, unfortunately. Knowing that Sue, the really successful seeming Super Global Ambassador Tier leader at the presentation on Saturday earned less than a shelf stacker does not stop some people figuring if only they join Amway they'd be doing better.
  - westiseast 9y ago
    Amway is huge in China. Anytime I got approached in coffee shops it was 50/50 someone wanting to practice English, or an Amway rep.
- ciguy 9y ago
  This is true however a large percentage of the US population refuses to have anything to do with them. I'm in Manila for work a lot, and the number of MLM scams and the percentage of people sharing them and recruiting on facebook is unnervingly high.
- panarky 9y ago
  It's a continuum: Ponzi -> Illegal MLM -> Legal MLM -> For-Profit Corporation. In Ponzis and Illegal MLMs, there's either no product or a sham product to disguise money from new recruits paying off the lineage. Legal MLMs are legal because there's a more legitimate product that accounts for a larger share of revenue. But even for-profit corporations that need to grow to survive share some features with the illegal variety, it's just that the real value of their products is a larger portion of their total revenue.

by ciguy 9y ago

vog 9y ago

> It's like they need something to believe in subconsciously even if their logical mind knows it's bullshit. A simpler explanation is that they just love to gamble. Essentially, they bet on ending up in a higher position of the pyramid.

ciguy 9y ago
Then you haven't experienced the religious fervor with which they defend the scheme once they're hooked. It's definitely more like a cult than any form of gambling addiction and once inside the relentless brainwashing begins. Many of these schemes even have weekly "meetups" aka services akin to those of religious congregations. These usually include an iconic leader who admonishes the minions for the coming week and encourages them to cut out any family or friends who dare to question them.
- bane 9y ago
  Even here in the U.S., I've known several people, with good stable money making careers to give it all up and start selling vitamins or beauty care products or whatever. It's truly bizarre and the desperate sell-to-everyone-all-the-time behavior that seems to appear afterwards drives all their friends away. I'm not sure what these schemes seem to be exploiting but man if it doesn't smell like religious radicalization.
  - vog 9y ago
    I wonder if there is any way to redirect all that dedication to something that is constructive and good for society.
    - yorwba 9y ago
      Maybe an education pyramid scheme? You receive training in useful skills, but only if you keep teaching your newly acquired knowledge to multiple other people.
      - uoaei 9y ago
        This sounds like an interesting way to disseminate a lot of incorrect "facts" very quickly with almost no traceability.
        yorwba 9y ago
        You mean like a chain letter? Usually, incorrect "facts" aren't incentivizing enough on their own to keep sharing them, which is why most of those viral memes spread quickly and die out quickly. I was thinking more in terms of a long-term commitment that provides enough benefits on its own to offset the time and effort spent by each participant on spreading it to others.

jannes 9y ago

Even in the US there are large MLM scams. Just look at Herbalife. They say they stopped some of the bad practices after the FCA investigation, but how likely is it that they changed a pyramid scheme into a non-pyramid scheme overnight?

ghostcluster 9y ago
Amway is another example. It has established close ties to the US government to help ensure its survival, even though it is another parasitic multilevel marketing pyramid scam. Like biological parasites, the long lasting ones seem to have optimized the level of damage and chaos they cause, along with maintaining protection mechanisms (lobbying, political donations, corruption) that enable them to continue to survive and be incredibly lucrative to their founders.
- tialaramex 9y ago
  In the UK Amway's legal settlement requires them to publish the compensation tiers and how many people are in each tier. So you can see at a glance that almost everybody involved gets nothing. It doesn't stop people joining, unfortunately. Knowing that Sue, the really successful seeming Super Global Ambassador Tier leader at the presentation on Saturday earned less than a shelf stacker does not stop some people figuring if only they join Amway they'd be doing better.
- westiseast 9y ago
  Amway is huge in China. Anytime I got approached in coffee shops it was 50/50 someone wanting to practice English, or an Amway rep.
ciguy 9y ago
This is true however a large percentage of the US population refuses to have anything to do with them. I'm in Manila for work a lot, and the number of MLM scams and the percentage of people sharing them and recruiting on facebook is unnervingly high.
panarky 9y ago
It's a continuum: Ponzi -> Illegal MLM -> Legal MLM -> For-Profit Corporation. In Ponzis and Illegal MLMs, there's either no product or a sham product to disguise money from new recruits paying off the lineage. Legal MLMs are legal because there's a more legitimate product that accounts for a larger share of revenue. But even for-profit corporations that need to grow to survive share some features with the illegal variety, it's just that the real value of their products is a larger portion of their total revenue.