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I've made the same argument as the writer, and I have children. Frankly, I'm not sure how to advise them when the time comes. It may well be that for some, I'

I've made the same argument as the writer, and I have children. Frankly, I'm not sure how to advise them when the time comes. It may well be that for some, I'd suggest a college education, while for others, I might suggest learning a trade and getting ahead in it while they're young. That is to say, I think your comment makes a conclusion based on your assumptions about people who question the universal value of higher education, and you don't have anything real to back it up.

intopieces 9y ago
I question the universal value of higher education, too. But I come to a different conclusion: that is, that education ought to be reformed to make it more universally valuable, not systematically kept from the people it failed.
jimmaswell 9y ago
Here's one argument against college education for jobs: you're very likely to be forced to move far from home to find any work in your field. There just weren't programming jobs within an hour of me in upper NY so I had to move to a place in New Jersey that I don't like that much out of necessity. I'm sure it would've went the same for chemical engineering or whatever else with very few exceptions, maybe law or medicine. If I'd taken a trade like electrical work or plumbing I could live anywhere I wanted - everyone has toilets and wires - but now I'm at the mercy of the programming job market until I can transition to remote work, so it'll be years until I get to live somewhere to my preference. Where do you live? If it's not in or very close to highly dense areas, encourage trades if you don't want to have to take a plane or drive hours to visit your grandchildren.
- elguyosupremo 9y ago
  While I get your point it should also be noted that an area can only sustain so many plumbers and electricians. It's not like there are hundreds of new plumber jobs opening up every year, especially in a place like Upstate NY with a shitty economy. They need people to get educated but then come back home and help improve the home economy. Of course I say this as someone who moved from Upstate NY to Texas for work.
  - IkmoIkmo 9y ago
    True, but there's still a difference. If you graduate with 50k student debt, say in CS, you're absolutely urged to work in your niche field where you're compensated for your new expertise and can pay back the loan. That may mean moving to a particular place with an industry that caters to this niche. If you did vocational (e.g. apprenticeship) schooling and graduate with little or no debt, that urgency is far smaller, and it tends to be much less of a niche. i.e., there's less debt pressure to pursue work that adequately compensates for your new knowledge, and there's more places (nearby) as you don't work in a niche as much.
barrkel 9y ago
The fact is, people perceive trades as socially inferior to white collar careers requiring college. This is completely independent of earning potential, mind. And software engineering is mostly a trade. The fact that you do it indoors, in offices, without getting your hands dirty is deceptive; it's conceptually very similar to construction, mechanics, plumbing, etc.

intopieces 9y ago

I question the universal value of higher education, too. But I come to a different conclusion: that is, that education ought to be reformed to make it more universally valuable, not systematically kept from the people it failed.

jimmaswell 9y ago

Here's one argument against college education for jobs: you're very likely to be forced to move far from home to find any work in your field. There just weren't programming jobs within an hour of me in upper NY so I had to move to a place in New Jersey that I don't like that much out of necessity. I'm sure it would've went the same for chemical engineering or whatever else with very few exceptions, maybe law or medicine. If I'd taken a trade like electrical work or plumbing I could live anywhere I wanted - everyone has toilets and wires - but now I'm at the mercy of the programming job market until I can transition to remote work, so it'll be years until I get to live somewhere to my preference. Where do you live? If it's not in or very close to highly dense areas, encourage trades if you don't want to have to take a plane or drive hours to visit your grandchildren.

elguyosupremo 9y ago
While I get your point it should also be noted that an area can only sustain so many plumbers and electricians. It's not like there are hundreds of new plumber jobs opening up every year, especially in a place like Upstate NY with a shitty economy. They need people to get educated but then come back home and help improve the home economy. Of course I say this as someone who moved from Upstate NY to Texas for work.
- IkmoIkmo 9y ago
  True, but there's still a difference. If you graduate with 50k student debt, say in CS, you're absolutely urged to work in your niche field where you're compensated for your new expertise and can pay back the loan. That may mean moving to a particular place with an industry that caters to this niche. If you did vocational (e.g. apprenticeship) schooling and graduate with little or no debt, that urgency is far smaller, and it tends to be much less of a niche. i.e., there's less debt pressure to pursue work that adequately compensates for your new knowledge, and there's more places (nearby) as you don't work in a niche as much.

barrkel 9y ago

The fact is, people perceive trades as socially inferior to white collar careers requiring college. This is completely independent of earning potential, mind. And software engineering is mostly a trade. The fact that you do it indoors, in offices, without getting your hands dirty is deceptive; it's conceptually very similar to construction, mechanics, plumbing, etc.