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I think that was the entire point of the rest of the post that followed. Basically, it'd be nice to have zero, but just having fewer deaths is an improvement.

I think that was the entire point of the rest of the post that followed. Basically, it'd be nice to have zero, but just having fewer deaths is an improvement. If you have to seriously ask why it's bad to have people dying on the road, it might be better to ask that question in a more private setting.

lisper 9y ago
I didn't say road deaths weren't bad. Yes, all else being equal it would be better not to have people dying on roads (or anywhere else). But all else is not equal. Everything is a trade-off, and we have to choose where on the balance we want to be. I don't think it's beneficial to sweep this fact under a platitude.
perl4ever 9y ago
It's not pleasant dying in a nursing home because of (or after) a stroke, or from cancer, or... It's neither new nor shocking for people to express the opinion that the slowest death is not the best one. I sometimes experience discomfort in response to something as innocuous as minimizing road deaths - it makes me wonder if humans are becoming paperclip maximizers even before AGI is here. See: https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer
- freehunter 9y ago
  It's also not pleasant for Einstein to die in a car crash before realizing his genius, or George Washington before leading the Revolution, or Cincinnatus before saving the Romans or... Sure, if you're 80 and facing down a life sentence in a nursing home, do whatever you feel is best. But if you're actively arguing that random people dying in car accidents is a good thing... you know car crashes kill children too, right? They kill good people too, right? They kill smart people. They kill anyone, by pure random luck. They kill your mom, they kill your spouse, they kill your child. If someone wants to die, sure, let them die. If someone wants to live, I think it's best to minimize the ways they could unintentionally die. But by all means, if you want to stop wearing a seatbelt, you go right ahead. I'm going to buckle mine anyway. And I'm going to try to avoid smallpox, because I am not absolutely insane and I don't have some crazy death fetish.
  - lisper 9y ago
    > if you're actively arguing that random people dying in car accidents is a good thing No one is saying that. The point is that it might be a worthwhile tradeoff to accept some deaths as the price of the benefits that accrue from engaging in certain risky activities.
  - perl4ever 9y ago
    Random people died from accidents with horses, before cars. Some of them famous. I wear my seatbelt, but I also have a motorcycle license. I have a modern car with all the latest safety features, but I also have an old car without airbags or ABS. I think phrasing like "crazy death fetish" is unreasonable and histrionic. Protecting people from harm is something that can be seen as horrifying when taken to the extreme. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Folded_Hands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Folded_Hands

lisper 9y ago

I didn't say road deaths weren't bad. Yes, all else being equal it would be better not to have people dying on roads (or anywhere else). But all else is not equal. Everything is a trade-off, and we have to choose where on the balance we want to be. I don't think it's beneficial to sweep this fact under a platitude.

perl4ever 9y ago

It's not pleasant dying in a nursing home because of (or after) a stroke, or from cancer, or... It's neither new nor shocking for people to express the opinion that the slowest death is not the best one. I sometimes experience discomfort in response to something as innocuous as minimizing road deaths - it makes me wonder if humans are becoming paperclip maximizers even before AGI is here. See: https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer

freehunter 9y ago
It's also not pleasant for Einstein to die in a car crash before realizing his genius, or George Washington before leading the Revolution, or Cincinnatus before saving the Romans or... Sure, if you're 80 and facing down a life sentence in a nursing home, do whatever you feel is best. But if you're actively arguing that random people dying in car accidents is a good thing... you know car crashes kill children too, right? They kill good people too, right? They kill smart people. They kill anyone, by pure random luck. They kill your mom, they kill your spouse, they kill your child. If someone wants to die, sure, let them die. If someone wants to live, I think it's best to minimize the ways they could unintentionally die. But by all means, if you want to stop wearing a seatbelt, you go right ahead. I'm going to buckle mine anyway. And I'm going to try to avoid smallpox, because I am not absolutely insane and I don't have some crazy death fetish.
- lisper 9y ago
  > if you're actively arguing that random people dying in car accidents is a good thing No one is saying that. The point is that it might be a worthwhile tradeoff to accept some deaths as the price of the benefits that accrue from engaging in certain risky activities.
- perl4ever 9y ago
  Random people died from accidents with horses, before cars. Some of them famous. I wear my seatbelt, but I also have a motorcycle license. I have a modern car with all the latest safety features, but I also have an old car without airbags or ABS. I think phrasing like "crazy death fetish" is unreasonable and histrionic. Protecting people from harm is something that can be seen as horrifying when taken to the extreme. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Folded_Hands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Folded_Hands