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Sweden is deporting entrepreneur for lowering his own salary
- bjornedstrom 9y agoThis happens over and over again in Sweden: skilled worker immigrants get deported over small technicalities, that is often not even their own fault. There have been many examples of this affecting highly skilled engineers in some of Swedens famous (and not famous) tech startups. What I find disturbing is that immigrant criminals, who haven't contributed to society at all, often do not get sentenced to deportation. So we have the situation that people who are a benefit to the Swedish society get deported, but the criminals get to stay.
- raverbashing 9y ago> What I find disturbing is that immigrant criminals, who haven't contributed to society at all, often do not get sentenced to deportation. Correct Most (of the criminals under threat of deportation) just come with some "creative" story about how they are persecuted in their original country (for being extremists, most likely) and how they will face the death penalty there (while they probably killed or have contributed to the death of many)
- antonkm 9y agoNo, this isn't correct. Please provide some kind of evidence to provide your racist claim. I really despise these kind of claims, especially when connected to political correctness. Sweden does not have a problem with political correctness - only the right wing extremists think so. I rather be politically correct (which actually means polite and respectful) than be able to spew hate against minorities without anyone telling me I'm wrong. The term only acts as a way to distract the opponent arguing against racism, sexism or other despicable ideologies. It's effective and Sweden's version of Trumping it. I agree about the laws being too rigid in regards to working professionals.
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- rhapsodic 9y ago>Sweden does not have a problem with political correctness - only the right wing extremists think so The Guardian (UK) is hardly an extremist right-wing publication, and it begs to disagree: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/13/sex-assaults-sweden-stockholm-music-festival https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/13/sex-as... (Edit: this getting hammered by downvotes is an example of PC in action.)
- antonkm 9y agoThat's an opinion piece and not a piece of actual investigate journalism. I'd say the point still stands: the term political correctness was popularized by the racist Sweden Democrats, and is used as I expressed. It's still mainly the right wing extremists that use it, even though it's more common to see populist far righters use it also.
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- Y_Y 9y ago
- megalodon 9y agoIronically, your comment is a good example of ”creative” storytelling.
- jlebar 9y agoMost just come with some "creative" story about how they are persecuted in their original country [...] while they probably killed or have contributed to the death of many Are you really saying that a majority, or even a large fraction, of illegal immigrants to Sweden are murderers or accessories to murder? May I ask: Where did you learn this?
- raverbashing 9y ago> Are you really saying that a majority, or even a large fraction, of illegal immigrants to Sweden are murderers or accessories to murder? Of course not The context was set by the phrase I quoted, which is that of "immigrant criminals" (and I'm not considering that a pleonasm, as some might)
- BadassFractal 9y agoIn the US, if you're perfectly productive, legal, highly qualified and well-behaved member of society on H1B from China or India it might still take you 10-15 years to become a resident, so the situation isn't totally rosy here either. And you certainly won't have the right to work on your own idea while you're on that visa, so that's a long time to wait before you can even get started. Probably explains why so many people will try to game the system and claim to belong to the O-1 category.
- qbaqbaqba 9y agoO-1 stands for...?
- BadassFractal 9y agohttps://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/o-1-visa-individuals-extraordinary-ability-or-achievement https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-worker...
- matt_wulfeck 9y agoThis is a story playing out in a lot of western countries, especially in Europe.
- volgo 9y agoUnfortunately, it's because highly skilled people are "boring" (definitely don't mean it as an offense) and don't elicit sympathy. They usually do well for themselves so people don't feel sorry enough to help them It's kind of a paradox
- Feniks 9y agoIf you are a benefit to society prove it. Pay slips should do it. Easy. Nobody likes mass immigration in Europe because unlike the US everyone is entitled to housing, healthcare, education. That adds up. And we don't have much need for low skill black market jobs.
- illuminati1911 9y agoSame here in Finland. If you are an immigrant outside of EU and you are working legally, but you happen to miss some small details in the labour code of Finnish law, you might get kicked out and there is nothing you can do. The faceless bureaucrats don't give a fuck. However if you are unemployed and wielding knife at a local subway station, you will get both the leftist party and Finnish government to act as your personal bodyguard and you'll never have to leave the country against your own will.
- callesgg 9y agoWhy would he get a collective employment agreement in the first place? Assuming there is an angle the thelocal.se is trying to hide.
- tuukkah 9y agoThe collective agreement is binding to every employer and employee in the field - you can think of it as a per-field minimum wage law.
- digi_owl 9y agoThat is refreshed every couple years via collective bargaining between companies and unions, with a government representative sitting in as referee.
- nemetroid 9y agoThis is incorrect. There are many tech companies in Sweden that haven't signed a collective agreement. However, "to obtain a work permit you must [...] have been offered terms of employment that are on par with those set by Swedish collective agreements or which are customary within the occupation or industry" [0] [0]: https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Working-in-Sweden/Employed/Work-permit-requirements.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...
- the_mitsuhiko 9y agoPresumably because he is considered an employee. Happens in Austria for founders who own less than 50% of their company for instance.
- digi_owl 9y agoIn this instance he may simply have filed for the wrong kind of visa. All in all i have come to wonder if thelocal have some kind of agenda. It seems to be willfully ignorant of laws and customs of the nations it reports on.
- larrysalibra 9y agoI was in a similar position as this entrepreneur. I had the company I created sponsored my own employment visa in Hong Kong. I often took less salary than my employment contract that was provided with the visa application specified because that's what happens sometimes with bootstrapped businesses. Luckily for me, the Hong Kong government isn't the Swedish government, and didn't give me a hard time when renewing my visa. It will be Sweden's loss if they deport this entrepreneur.
- maximumkek 9y agoIsmail
- Profragile 9y agoSweden is a shithole which optimizes for shitty ideals while sacrificing what is truly important.
- purplezooey 9y agoAt least Sweden's government has some teeth when it comes to wages and living standards. Ours (US) could give a shit except for the living standards of the Kochs.
- pm90 9y ago> Ours (US) could give a shit except for the living standards of the Kochs. Then stop voting for Koch crony-republicans and tea party fundamentalists.
- sctb 9y agoPlease no off-topic political trolling. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- stareatgoats 9y agoThe law is in place to prevent foreign workers from being exploited. That they voluntarily reduce their own salary is not relevant to the implementation (as they could have been pressured to reduce it). Still, the outcome is absurd. I wonder if it is because of the inherent rigidness of civil law? would a common law system solve this better?
- throwaway7645 9y agoThere's a lot of things I like about Sweden, but reading things like this make me cringe a bit. Hopefully his lawyer keeps the deportation off.
- bjourne 9y agoI'm not a Nazi, but rules are rules. If you are intent on immigrating to a country, then it is your duty to read and understand that country's laws. I can't visit Singapore and then claim ignorance if I get fined for spitting. E.g the guy could have googled "sweden work permit," clicked on the first result, then through to the FAQ: What is the requirement regarding wages? To be granted a work permit, you must be offered a wage that is at the level of a Swedish collective agreement or what is normal for the profession or industry. You must also work to such an extent that your wages amount to at least SEK 13,000 a month before tax. https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Working-in-Sweden/Frequently-asked-questions.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...
- projectramo 9y agoThere are too many rules for people to keep track of all of them and they have to be interpreted and enforced with discretion. So, yes if you get whipped in Singapore for spitting out gum, that is wrong on their part. It is rude to spit gum but you don't deserve to be physically beaten for it.
- jonathanyc 9y agoI don’t see how you can possibly claim the existence of an absolute moral law demonstrating that Singapore is wrong. Your own comment is yet more evidence that law is extemely well publicized, and although I might not myself vote for such a law, I don’t have the arrogance and naïveté to think they are somehow definitely incorrect. There are things which we can be certain are wrong: murder, rape, etc. A law that punishes gum chewing to some extent or another is not one of them.
- projectramo 9y agoYou keep changing the terms of the debate. Why are the standards suddenly "the existence of an absolute moral law"? You can't demonstrate that there is an "absolute moral law" against murder. What does an absolute moral law have to do with how well the law is publicized? Note that my awareness of a law is not related to its morality. And finally, you take the whole point -- that being whipped is an extreme punishment -- and you shove it into this form "to some extent or another." The debate is not about whether we ought to punish chewing gum but about the severity of whipping.
- pimmen 9y agoThere are also cases of immigrants being deported for taking a second job to pay the bills because the law for a worker's visa says that it applies to "a job" as in singular [0]. The same applies if you quit a lousy job and find a new one [1]. I suspect it's game theory; the public reacts more negatively to allowing immigrants the right to stay since it means they get access to integration programs while the public might get mad over an incident like this but not the overall trend of being overly rigid. The choice becomes pretty easy politically. [0] http://viralt.aftonbladet.se/sheikh-29-ska-utvisas-fran-sverige-for-att-han-haft-for-manga-jobb/ http://viralt.aftonbladet.se/sheikh-29-ska-utvisas-fran-sver... [1] https://digital.di.se/artikel/han-fick-jobb-som-utvecklare--blir-utvisad https://digital.di.se/artikel/han-fick-jobb-som-utvecklare--...
- ImSkeptical 9y agoThis outcome seems perverse, but I understand how it is an extension of the idea that the government can set minimum salaries. By paying less for labor, even his own, his company gets an advantage. The only way for his competitors to compete with cheap labor would be hiring their own cheap labor, but that creates the condition (low wage for labor) Sweden wants to solve. Why should the regulations around minimum wage apply differently to him than to others? Of course, it seems perverse because we know that he really wants to have a lower wage, that it really is in his best interest to have a lower wage, etc but at the same time, that might apply to many people who would want to work at below minimum wage. If you think the government should set rules like "You must earn X or be deported" then it seems to me you have no reason to be upset with this result.
- mcguire 9y agoTl;dr: Immigrant employee of a company has salary reduced below the amount[1] specified in his visa; the government refuses to extend his visa even though he says, "It's ok! Really!" [1] Presumably set high enough that foreign workers don't drive down the wages of locals.