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Speed limits in US highways had been introduced in 70s to save gas during the crisis. Let’s all agree it had nothing to do with safety. The claim that 30% of i

by lsh123 9y ago

Speed limits in US highways had been introduced in 70s to save gas during the crisis. Let’s all agree it had nothing to do with safety. The claim that 30% of incidents are caused by speeding are also questionable. Few years back I was rear ended by someone talking on the phone. The officer wrote speeding as the cause of incident. When I asked about it, he replied that the safe speed in this case was zero. Just wander how many of these 30% are the same. P.S. I rarely actually go above the speed of the traffic flow. I think it is the safest to drive at the same speed as others even if it is above speed limit. On the other hand, drivers in the left lane going 60 mph when everyone else is doing 85 mph are the real danger on the road.

llukas 9y ago
You forgot about pedestrians. Should we throw away research that says pedestrian death is more likely when speed is higher than 50kph?
- ronsor 9y ago
  There are no pedestrians on highways.
  - Piskvorrr 9y ago
    Babylonian alert: in some Englishes, "highway" is "road", whereas in others it means "high-speed motor vehicle road". Confusing, yes: given that the article talks about rural and city roads and the GP tries to refute it through freeway speed limits, apparently some of the confusion is present here as well.
    - oasisbob 9y ago
      Very good point. Also, in some areas highway is the term used in law for any "road", even if it's not in common use and residents still equate highway with a more high-speed limited access facility.
    - u801e 9y ago
      In American English, a highway is, what you term, a "high-speed motor vehicle road". As far as I know, the equivalent term in other English speaking countries (and other countries where English is used as a secondary language) is motorway.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    That is not true, even in the US. For one, people may be allowed to walk even on freeways if their car has broken down and they are walking to the nearest exit. I've walked on the highway because I ran out of gas and it was only a mile to the nearest gas station. I've also picked up someone rolling a flat tire to the next exit. Here's the relevant Louisiana law, from http://legis.la.gov/Legis/Law.aspx?d=88191 http://legis.la.gov/Legis/Law.aspx?d=88191 : > Pedestrians on highways or interstate highways: > A. Where sidewalks are provided, it shall be unlawful for any pedestrian to walk along and upon an adjacent highway. > B. Where sidewalks are not provided, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall, when practicable, walk only on the left side of the highway or its shoulder, facing traffic which may approach from the opposite direction. > C. It shall be unlawful for any pedestrian to cross an interstate highway, except in the case of an emergency Here's part of the law for Idaho, from https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title49/T49CH7/SECT49-708/ https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title49/T... : > (3) Where neither a sidewalk nor a shoulder is available, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall walk as near as practicable to an outside edge of the roadway, and, if on a two-way highway, shall walk only on the left side of the highway. Thus, it can be legal to walk on a highway. Do people do it? Yes. In New Mexico, people do the pilgrimage to Santuario de Chimayo. Here's a picture of people doing that while walking on the shoulder of Highway 503: https://www.abqjournal.com/562845/route-for-chimayo-holy-week-pilgrims-being-prepared.html https://www.abqjournal.com/562845/route-for-chimayo-holy-wee... Here are some monks doing a pilgrimage along local and state highways from New Orleans to Memphis. https://www.catholicherald.com/Faith/Dominican_friars_to_make_pilgrimage_on_foot/ https://www.catholicherald.com/Faith/Dominican_friars_to_mak... Here's a man walking around the Salton Sea, from http://dineshdesai.info/saltonwalk/index.html http://dineshdesai.info/saltonwalk/index.html : > "Is it permissible to walk along the new section of the highway south of 66th Avenue? ... a CHP officer picks up the phone and tells me that it is O.K. to walk along the old 86 as well as the new 86S."
    - bluedino 9y ago
      It's usually only legal to walk on a highway if you are leaving a broken down vehicle. Even then, it's basically a death wish. It's not however legal to walk onto a highway, or used a bike, or motorbike under 250cc. It's posted at the on/ramp
evincarofautumn 9y ago
I agree it’s probably safest to follow the flow of traffic, because it’s speed differences and changes that I’ve seen cause the most accidents or near-accidents. When people are slowing down, changing lanes, exiting, or other things that cause speed differences between vehicles, it reduces other drivers’ ability to predict what’s going to happen, introducing more opportunities for a wrong move. Whereas I’ve done the trip between SF and Reno/Tahoe many times, for example, and depending on time of day (day of week, season of year, &c.) there are parts of I-80 where virtually all the traffic flows smoothly and consistently at 80–85mph. I have a hunch that it’s not a coincidence that I’ve seen far fewer accidents in those areas—all you have to do is stay awake, steer, and hope a deer doesn’t jump out.
- jsjohnst 9y ago
  As said in an advanced driving class I once took, “speed doesn’t kill, its change in speed that does.”
KozmoNau7 9y ago
I've found it much more relaxing to just drive the speed limit, keep to the right as much as possible and to be a courteous driver in general. I let the traffic flow around me, instead of trying to keep up with everyone. When I'm driving, I relax and try not to stress about getting to my destination as quickly as possible. YMMV of course, as I'm in Europe and driving habits do differ a lot. I think inattentiveness and impatience are the biggest killers in traffic. I don't really care if people are going 10 over, as long as they're not harassing other people.
- u801e 9y ago
  > I've found it much more relaxing to just drive the speed limit, keep to the right as much as possible and to be a courteous driver in general. On surface streets (streets within city limits where the speed limit ranges from 15 mph to 40 mph), I have the same experience, but on highways/motorways, I don't find it relaxing at all because everyone is passing me at relatively high speed differentials.
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    In other words, you feel a sort of peer pressure to speed, in order to match speed with those people?
    - u801e 9y ago
      Is it really speeding if one is going the speed of traffic? Traffic speed is largely determined by the design speed of the roadway, not the posted speed limit. Also, going substantially above or below the speed of traffic puts one at an increased risk [1] of being involved in a collision. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve
- int_19h 9y ago
  Hereabouts, if you drive in the right lane, you'll be stuck behind someone going 5-10 mph slower than the posted limit. (For what it's worth, it can also happen in the leftmost lane, just not quite as often.)
drb91 9y ago
I believe that the speed limit is based around speed. I think it is generally safe to drive the speed limit, except under extraordinary circumstances. I also think it’s rather easy to drive at less-than-safe speeds (there are grey areas depending on circumstances) while ignoring the limit. I mean, maybe you could make efficiency arguments, but in my experience going over the speed limit rarely helps you get anywhere faster around major metro areas. So such arguments would probably have to argue for specific circumstances. Even the autobahn has speed limits posted in certain areas. If we’re going off purely anecdotal evidence, I’ve noticed that people tend to speed because they are poor with time management, or they are paid to speed by some organization (consider pizza delivery). Meanwhile, what are you proposing?
craftyguy 9y ago
> Speed limits in US highways had been introduced in 70s to save gas during the crisis. Let’s all agree it had nothing to do with safety. Source?
- zone411 9y ago
  http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=4332 http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=4332
gowld 9y ago
The article and discussion thread confuse highway speeds with city speeds. On highways, there's a delicate tradeoff between, (a) long travel time and congestion, and (b) safety. In city, speeds are generally unsafely high, for trivial travel time benefit.
u801e 9y ago
> The claim that 30% of incidents are caused by speeding are also questionable. The statistics actually say that they're "speeding related", not caused by speeding. Also, they conflate alcohol related crashes with speeding related crashes. If you exclude alcohol related crashes, and crashes where someone was driving too fast for conditions, it drops to around 5% to 10%. According to the Virginia Crash Facts document from 2015[1], "speed too fast" was cited as a factor in 7.74% of fatal crashes (page 35 of the pdf document). West Virginia [2] has a similar percentage for "exceeding speed limit" (8.24%) [1] https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/safety/crash_data/crash_facts/crash_facts_15.pdf https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/safety/crash_data/crash_facts/c... [2] https://transportation.wv.gov/highways/traffic/Documents/2003CrashData.pdf https://transportation.wv.gov/highways/traffic/Documents/200...
tehlike 9y ago
This is very true, and is a phenomenon that one can observe on 280. Traffic flows with >70mph usually but can come to a sudden stop, which forces experienced drivers to take safe stop at shoulders. Or if you had a brief moment of attention slip, to the rear end of the car in front. Driving is usually about the flow, and anything that causes change to it (especially sudden ones) are dangerous.

by lsh123 9y ago

llukas 9y ago

You forgot about pedestrians. Should we throw away research that says pedestrian death is more likely when speed is higher than 50kph?

ronsor 9y ago
There are no pedestrians on highways.
- Piskvorrr 9y ago
  Babylonian alert: in some Englishes, "highway" is "road", whereas in others it means "high-speed motor vehicle road". Confusing, yes: given that the article talks about rural and city roads and the GP tries to refute it through freeway speed limits, apparently some of the confusion is present here as well.
  - oasisbob 9y ago
    Very good point. Also, in some areas highway is the term used in law for any "road", even if it's not in common use and residents still equate highway with a more high-speed limited access facility.
  - u801e 9y ago
    In American English, a highway is, what you term, a "high-speed motor vehicle road". As far as I know, the equivalent term in other English speaking countries (and other countries where English is used as a secondary language) is motorway.
- eesmith 9y ago
  That is not true, even in the US. For one, people may be allowed to walk even on freeways if their car has broken down and they are walking to the nearest exit. I've walked on the highway because I ran out of gas and it was only a mile to the nearest gas station. I've also picked up someone rolling a flat tire to the next exit. Here's the relevant Louisiana law, from http://legis.la.gov/Legis/Law.aspx?d=88191 http://legis.la.gov/Legis/Law.aspx?d=88191 : > Pedestrians on highways or interstate highways: > A. Where sidewalks are provided, it shall be unlawful for any pedestrian to walk along and upon an adjacent highway. > B. Where sidewalks are not provided, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall, when practicable, walk only on the left side of the highway or its shoulder, facing traffic which may approach from the opposite direction. > C. It shall be unlawful for any pedestrian to cross an interstate highway, except in the case of an emergency Here's part of the law for Idaho, from https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title49/T49CH7/SECT49-708/ https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/Title49/T... : > (3) Where neither a sidewalk nor a shoulder is available, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall walk as near as practicable to an outside edge of the roadway, and, if on a two-way highway, shall walk only on the left side of the highway. Thus, it can be legal to walk on a highway. Do people do it? Yes. In New Mexico, people do the pilgrimage to Santuario de Chimayo. Here's a picture of people doing that while walking on the shoulder of Highway 503: https://www.abqjournal.com/562845/route-for-chimayo-holy-week-pilgrims-being-prepared.html https://www.abqjournal.com/562845/route-for-chimayo-holy-wee... Here are some monks doing a pilgrimage along local and state highways from New Orleans to Memphis. https://www.catholicherald.com/Faith/Dominican_friars_to_make_pilgrimage_on_foot/ https://www.catholicherald.com/Faith/Dominican_friars_to_mak... Here's a man walking around the Salton Sea, from http://dineshdesai.info/saltonwalk/index.html http://dineshdesai.info/saltonwalk/index.html : > "Is it permissible to walk along the new section of the highway south of 66th Avenue? ... a CHP officer picks up the phone and tells me that it is O.K. to walk along the old 86 as well as the new 86S."
  - bluedino 9y ago
    It's usually only legal to walk on a highway if you are leaving a broken down vehicle. Even then, it's basically a death wish. It's not however legal to walk onto a highway, or used a bike, or motorbike under 250cc. It's posted at the on/ramp

evincarofautumn 9y ago

I agree it’s probably safest to follow the flow of traffic, because it’s speed differences and changes that I’ve seen cause the most accidents or near-accidents. When people are slowing down, changing lanes, exiting, or other things that cause speed differences between vehicles, it reduces other drivers’ ability to predict what’s going to happen, introducing more opportunities for a wrong move. Whereas I’ve done the trip between SF and Reno/Tahoe many times, for example, and depending on time of day (day of week, season of year, &c.) there are parts of I-80 where virtually all the traffic flows smoothly and consistently at 80–85mph. I have a hunch that it’s not a coincidence that I’ve seen far fewer accidents in those areas—all you have to do is stay awake, steer, and hope a deer doesn’t jump out.

jsjohnst 9y ago
As said in an advanced driving class I once took, “speed doesn’t kill, its change in speed that does.”

KozmoNau7 9y ago

I've found it much more relaxing to just drive the speed limit, keep to the right as much as possible and to be a courteous driver in general. I let the traffic flow around me, instead of trying to keep up with everyone. When I'm driving, I relax and try not to stress about getting to my destination as quickly as possible. YMMV of course, as I'm in Europe and driving habits do differ a lot. I think inattentiveness and impatience are the biggest killers in traffic. I don't really care if people are going 10 over, as long as they're not harassing other people.

u801e 9y ago
> I've found it much more relaxing to just drive the speed limit, keep to the right as much as possible and to be a courteous driver in general. On surface streets (streets within city limits where the speed limit ranges from 15 mph to 40 mph), I have the same experience, but on highways/motorways, I don't find it relaxing at all because everyone is passing me at relatively high speed differentials.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  In other words, you feel a sort of peer pressure to speed, in order to match speed with those people?
  - u801e 9y ago
    Is it really speeding if one is going the speed of traffic? Traffic speed is largely determined by the design speed of the roadway, not the posted speed limit. Also, going substantially above or below the speed of traffic puts one at an increased risk [1] of being involved in a collision. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve
int_19h 9y ago
Hereabouts, if you drive in the right lane, you'll be stuck behind someone going 5-10 mph slower than the posted limit. (For what it's worth, it can also happen in the leftmost lane, just not quite as often.)

drb91 9y ago

I believe that the speed limit is based around speed. I think it is generally safe to drive the speed limit, except under extraordinary circumstances. I also think it’s rather easy to drive at less-than-safe speeds (there are grey areas depending on circumstances) while ignoring the limit. I mean, maybe you could make efficiency arguments, but in my experience going over the speed limit rarely helps you get anywhere faster around major metro areas. So such arguments would probably have to argue for specific circumstances. Even the autobahn has speed limits posted in certain areas. If we’re going off purely anecdotal evidence, I’ve noticed that people tend to speed because they are poor with time management, or they are paid to speed by some organization (consider pizza delivery). Meanwhile, what are you proposing?

craftyguy 9y ago

> Speed limits in US highways had been introduced in 70s to save gas during the crisis. Let’s all agree it had nothing to do with safety. Source?

zone411 9y ago
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=4332 http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=4332

gowld 9y ago

The article and discussion thread confuse highway speeds with city speeds. On highways, there's a delicate tradeoff between, (a) long travel time and congestion, and (b) safety. In city, speeds are generally unsafely high, for trivial travel time benefit.

u801e 9y ago

> The claim that 30% of incidents are caused by speeding are also questionable. The statistics actually say that they're "speeding related", not caused by speeding. Also, they conflate alcohol related crashes with speeding related crashes. If you exclude alcohol related crashes, and crashes where someone was driving too fast for conditions, it drops to around 5% to 10%. According to the Virginia Crash Facts document from 2015[1], "speed too fast" was cited as a factor in 7.74% of fatal crashes (page 35 of the pdf document). West Virginia [2] has a similar percentage for "exceeding speed limit" (8.24%) [1] https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/safety/crash_data/crash_facts/crash_facts_15.pdf https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/safety/crash_data/crash_facts/c... [2] https://transportation.wv.gov/highways/traffic/Documents/2003CrashData.pdf https://transportation.wv.gov/highways/traffic/Documents/200...

tehlike 9y ago

This is very true, and is a phenomenon that one can observe on 280. Traffic flows with >70mph usually but can come to a sudden stop, which forces experienced drivers to take safe stop at shoulders. Or if you had a brief moment of attention slip, to the rear end of the car in front. Driving is usually about the flow, and anything that causes change to it (especially sudden ones) are dangerous.