7 ms·

The worst part about this, is Apple will throw their hands up in the air and say "See? The PC Business is dying. We need to double down on making Macbooks more

by pentae 9y ago

The worst part about this, is Apple will throw their hands up in the air and say "See? The PC Business is dying. We need to double down on making Macbooks more like iPads and focus on the iPhone business" Rather than realising it's because their new Macbook computer lineup is a burning dumpster fire that is almost universally reviled.

sethherr 9y ago
This. Diehard fan - at least previously, but times are a changing. Let alone the OS feeling less polished, the removal of time remaining on battery and other user hostile changes, the touch bar being poorly thought out net loss (e.g. the fact that you can’t adjust the brightness so in low light typing, it messes with your eyes), I’ve had to warranty 3 MacBook pros in the past year. I’d never had to warranty an apple product before. I don’t want another iPad or iPhone. I want a laptop that just works and I’m willing to pay for it. Please somebody deliver that, since apple isn’t chasing it anymore.
abritinthebay 9y ago
You need to get out if your bubble. The only complaint I’ve geard from literally hundreds of actual users about the new MBPs is they don’t like the shallow key travel on the new keyboards. I do, but I’ve always preferred less travel. Outside of the moaning online bubble (like HN) the MBP is a raging success.
- pentae 9y ago
  May I ask what kind of work you do where you're meeting hundreds of actual MBP users? I am part of a big digital nomad community and the new MBP has received tons of criticism, and I believe rightfully so.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Well, I'm part of the "digital nomad community" as well, and don't have many complaints, nor have heard tens of other people I know with one complaining, except for: the lack of convenience with the reduced port types.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    I’m a developer in SF where the official work & home computer is basically a MBP.
- sgarman 9y ago
  I have owned every single 15" MBP since they started using intel. Each one was better then the last - they were great - best laptops you can buy. This most recent one is the first one that is worse then the previous one.
  - 5_minutes 9y ago
    I thought I got used to the horrible keyboard, but after working on a old MBP I realise how bad the current one really is. I have no feeling with it. So yeah, for the first time in years, I'm looking around at other brands. I'm just locked in with iPhoto.
    - abritinthebay 9y ago
      No feeling? Do you have nerve issues or something? Help me understand this complaint, I don’t get it. Large key travel is only good for those hitting they keys way too hard imo
      - jacobolus 9y ago
        Longer key travel is helpful for almost everyone (for accuracy, speed, comfort, and avoiding injury). Ideal is probably at least 1.5mm before actuation, and at least 1mm after actuation. Maybe more. No recent laptop keyboard comes anywhere close to a truly fast and accurate keyboard, because the space constraints are simply too tight to fit in a mechanism optimized for ergonomics. All the best keyswitches are from <1990. They had many small moving parts and were very expensive to produce relative to cheaper alternatives like rubber domes. (Laptop keyboards also don’t have the space to properly raise the keycap tops on keys in further rows, because they don’t have space for it; this makes reaching for the top 2 rows of the keyboard noticeably slower and less comfortable) The best keyswitches actuate about halfway through the stroke, have a distinct drop in force at the actuation point, and have a significant mechanical bounce to them on the upstroke, launching your fingers up toward the next keypress. My all-time favorites are Alps “plate spring” switches used on certain Japanese IBM computers and some IBM luggables in the late 1980s (I can type about 20–30 wpm faster on these than on any laptop keyboard). You can also get this effect (with a very different overall feel) from Topre switches (still produced), or from IBM beam spring keyboards (from the 1970s). Some other keyboard enthusiasts have different preferences, e.g. for simple springs with no additional tactile mechanism (“linear switches”) optionally with a clicker or buzzer to give audio feedback of key actuation. Such switches are slower to type on than a snappier alternative, but some people prefer the feeling. Nobody should be hitting any type of keys “way too hard”. You want to use just enough force to actuate the key and not push the key hard all the way through the bottom of the stroke. This is much easier to judge when the switch has relatively dramatic tactile feedback and a lot of post-actuation travel which ramps up in resistance toward the bottom.
- Veen 9y ago
  I don't mind the shallow key travel, but the unreliability annoys me no end. In 2018, we shouldn't have to deal with keys that stick because a minute quantum of dust worked its way into the mechanism.
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    Hmm, personally I’ve never had that issue, and I’m not exactly the poster child for a clean & pristine laptop. Neither has any developer I know at my work. Are you somewhere with a lot of dust or something?
    - akvadrako 9y ago
      I had two sticky keys after about a year, and I'm not particularly dirty. They do even officially recommended you buy compressed air for cleaning, which I've never heard of before this keyboard.
      - abritinthebay 9y ago
        Oh, well, that makes sense. I thought you meant something more serious. I’ve seen issues like that with literally every laptop or regular pc keyboard since the 80s. Regular maintenance of a computer (any one) includes gentle cleaning of debris like that.
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      These problems are quite common, to the point that if you go to an Apple Store and tell one of the “geniuses” that you have missing (or doubled) key actuations, they’ll knowingly sigh and start filling out the paperwork to send your laptop off for a keyboard replacement. Obviously “quite common” is not the same as “at least one person in every office will run into this”. The problem is not whether your environment is pristine. The mechanism is just unreliable. Some people end up with keys not working after a few weeks of limited and careful use. My guess is that the tiny parts relatively easily get into some kind of subtle misalignment. The basic design is sound enough. I think with another few generations of engineering tweaks they can get these keyboards working as expected. In the mean time it’s pretty frustrating though.
- fit2rule 9y ago
  Mac ex-fanboix reporting in, had everything since the tiBook, an Apple II, and between. I don't wanna play no more. Because of the atrocious nature of things vis a vis MBP2017, and onwards, I'm leaving for something else. I say this, typing uncomfortably on a MBP2017 with a touchbar I never use, making constant typos, and feeling just plain ripped off.
  - itbeho 9y ago
    Leaving for what though? I have mostly the same sentiment as you, but find just about everything else on the market has some level of design insanity that provokes frustration with use. It's literally out of the pot, into the fire....
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    If you don’t use the touchbar I wonder what you ever do on the MBP. I use it regularly, many times a day for development & other tasks.
    - mmjaa 9y ago
      Also a pro developer here, also a non Touch Bar-user - in my point of view its a piece of junk and not worth the effort. So I'm curious how you find it so useful?
- ksec 9y ago
  You see, the problem is most of those who complain are the old time Mac users. Old as in when Apple was dying, and we were still buying Apple, until Steve Jobs came back and until Apple made iPod and later iPhone. Most of these MBP users are what I call new users, they are new to the Apple ecosystem. Mainly pulled in by the iPhone hollow effect. That is why Mac as a segment is still doing so well, there are lot of new users coming in, especially from China. The sales data doesn't tell how angry some of these old Apple users are. If it wasn't a friend of someone within the Apple executive circle told them how they were planning to leave the Mac ecosystem because the current Mac Pro didn't work, they will never have known they had a problem. It took 2 years for Apple to release a new product after they knew its has problem. Once Steve Jobs knew how many people hated the Apple Mouse, they had news and Interview saying they knew people didn't like it, and they are working on it. The new Apple now, it is coming up to 5 years and Mac Pro hasn't seen a update.
rsynnott 9y ago
While the PC business isn’t dying, sales are certainly in decline, and have been since 2012 or so. A 5% decline for Apple isn’t astonishing in context.

by pentae 9y ago

sethherr 9y ago

This. Diehard fan - at least previously, but times are a changing. Let alone the OS feeling less polished, the removal of time remaining on battery and other user hostile changes, the touch bar being poorly thought out net loss (e.g. the fact that you can’t adjust the brightness so in low light typing, it messes with your eyes), I’ve had to warranty 3 MacBook pros in the past year. I’d never had to warranty an apple product before. I don’t want another iPad or iPhone. I want a laptop that just works and I’m willing to pay for it. Please somebody deliver that, since apple isn’t chasing it anymore.

abritinthebay 9y ago

You need to get out if your bubble. The only complaint I’ve geard from literally hundreds of actual users about the new MBPs is they don’t like the shallow key travel on the new keyboards. I do, but I’ve always preferred less travel. Outside of the moaning online bubble (like HN) the MBP is a raging success.

pentae 9y ago
May I ask what kind of work you do where you're meeting hundreds of actual MBP users? I am part of a big digital nomad community and the new MBP has received tons of criticism, and I believe rightfully so.
- coldtea 9y ago
  Well, I'm part of the "digital nomad community" as well, and don't have many complaints, nor have heard tens of other people I know with one complaining, except for: the lack of convenience with the reduced port types.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  I’m a developer in SF where the official work & home computer is basically a MBP.
sgarman 9y ago
I have owned every single 15" MBP since they started using intel. Each one was better then the last - they were great - best laptops you can buy. This most recent one is the first one that is worse then the previous one.
- 5_minutes 9y ago
  I thought I got used to the horrible keyboard, but after working on a old MBP I realise how bad the current one really is. I have no feeling with it. So yeah, for the first time in years, I'm looking around at other brands. I'm just locked in with iPhoto.
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    No feeling? Do you have nerve issues or something? Help me understand this complaint, I don’t get it. Large key travel is only good for those hitting they keys way too hard imo
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      Longer key travel is helpful for almost everyone (for accuracy, speed, comfort, and avoiding injury). Ideal is probably at least 1.5mm before actuation, and at least 1mm after actuation. Maybe more. No recent laptop keyboard comes anywhere close to a truly fast and accurate keyboard, because the space constraints are simply too tight to fit in a mechanism optimized for ergonomics. All the best keyswitches are from <1990. They had many small moving parts and were very expensive to produce relative to cheaper alternatives like rubber domes. (Laptop keyboards also don’t have the space to properly raise the keycap tops on keys in further rows, because they don’t have space for it; this makes reaching for the top 2 rows of the keyboard noticeably slower and less comfortable) The best keyswitches actuate about halfway through the stroke, have a distinct drop in force at the actuation point, and have a significant mechanical bounce to them on the upstroke, launching your fingers up toward the next keypress. My all-time favorites are Alps “plate spring” switches used on certain Japanese IBM computers and some IBM luggables in the late 1980s (I can type about 20–30 wpm faster on these than on any laptop keyboard). You can also get this effect (with a very different overall feel) from Topre switches (still produced), or from IBM beam spring keyboards (from the 1970s). Some other keyboard enthusiasts have different preferences, e.g. for simple springs with no additional tactile mechanism (“linear switches”) optionally with a clicker or buzzer to give audio feedback of key actuation. Such switches are slower to type on than a snappier alternative, but some people prefer the feeling. Nobody should be hitting any type of keys “way too hard”. You want to use just enough force to actuate the key and not push the key hard all the way through the bottom of the stroke. This is much easier to judge when the switch has relatively dramatic tactile feedback and a lot of post-actuation travel which ramps up in resistance toward the bottom.
Veen 9y ago
I don't mind the shallow key travel, but the unreliability annoys me no end. In 2018, we shouldn't have to deal with keys that stick because a minute quantum of dust worked its way into the mechanism.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  Hmm, personally I’ve never had that issue, and I’m not exactly the poster child for a clean & pristine laptop. Neither has any developer I know at my work. Are you somewhere with a lot of dust or something?
  - akvadrako 9y ago
    I had two sticky keys after about a year, and I'm not particularly dirty. They do even officially recommended you buy compressed air for cleaning, which I've never heard of before this keyboard.
    - abritinthebay 9y ago
      Oh, well, that makes sense. I thought you meant something more serious. I’ve seen issues like that with literally every laptop or regular pc keyboard since the 80s. Regular maintenance of a computer (any one) includes gentle cleaning of debris like that.
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    These problems are quite common, to the point that if you go to an Apple Store and tell one of the “geniuses” that you have missing (or doubled) key actuations, they’ll knowingly sigh and start filling out the paperwork to send your laptop off for a keyboard replacement. Obviously “quite common” is not the same as “at least one person in every office will run into this”. The problem is not whether your environment is pristine. The mechanism is just unreliable. Some people end up with keys not working after a few weeks of limited and careful use. My guess is that the tiny parts relatively easily get into some kind of subtle misalignment. The basic design is sound enough. I think with another few generations of engineering tweaks they can get these keyboards working as expected. In the mean time it’s pretty frustrating though.
fit2rule 9y ago
Mac ex-fanboix reporting in, had everything since the tiBook, an Apple II, and between. I don't wanna play no more. Because of the atrocious nature of things vis a vis MBP2017, and onwards, I'm leaving for something else. I say this, typing uncomfortably on a MBP2017 with a touchbar I never use, making constant typos, and feeling just plain ripped off.
- itbeho 9y ago
  Leaving for what though? I have mostly the same sentiment as you, but find just about everything else on the market has some level of design insanity that provokes frustration with use. It's literally out of the pot, into the fire....
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  If you don’t use the touchbar I wonder what you ever do on the MBP. I use it regularly, many times a day for development & other tasks.
  - mmjaa 9y ago
    Also a pro developer here, also a non Touch Bar-user - in my point of view its a piece of junk and not worth the effort. So I'm curious how you find it so useful?
ksec 9y ago
You see, the problem is most of those who complain are the old time Mac users. Old as in when Apple was dying, and we were still buying Apple, until Steve Jobs came back and until Apple made iPod and later iPhone. Most of these MBP users are what I call new users, they are new to the Apple ecosystem. Mainly pulled in by the iPhone hollow effect. That is why Mac as a segment is still doing so well, there are lot of new users coming in, especially from China. The sales data doesn't tell how angry some of these old Apple users are. If it wasn't a friend of someone within the Apple executive circle told them how they were planning to leave the Mac ecosystem because the current Mac Pro didn't work, they will never have known they had a problem. It took 2 years for Apple to release a new product after they knew its has problem. Once Steve Jobs knew how many people hated the Apple Mouse, they had news and Interview saying they knew people didn't like it, and they are working on it. The new Apple now, it is coming up to 5 years and Mac Pro hasn't seen a update.

rsynnott 9y ago

While the PC business isn’t dying, sales are certainly in decline, and have been since 2012 or so. A 5% decline for Apple isn’t astonishing in context.