5 ms·

I'm not familiar with the inner workings of random number generators but is true randomness even possible or is the randomness just so complex that we can't rev

I'm not familiar with the inner workings of random number generators but is true randomness even possible or is the randomness just so complex that we can't reverse engineer it? My instinct says that if you run the same random number generator in the same hardware with the same Unix timestamp and same inputs wouldn't the outputs be the same?

Armisael16 9y ago
Yes, true randomness is possible through quantum phenomenon. No, it isn’t possible to generate true randomness using deterministic processes (eg, almost all computational ones).
- intralizee 9y ago
  Determinists would ask, is the quantum phenomenon just ignorance by current lack of understanding to what humans can possibly know with the tools we have now? True randomness is like believing in god if your life is good or praying to a god if your life is bad.
  - selestify 9y ago
    According to the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, there are no local hidden variables and the world is truly random. Even knowing the complete state of a particle will not tell you how its wave function will collapse.
    - intralizee 9y ago
      I am convinced God does not play dice.
dahart 9y ago
If your random number generator is pure software, it’s repeatable. People sell hardware random number generators that are based on Geiger counters, since radiation is (as far as we know) truly random.
- martinpw 9y ago
  I believe some (all?) new Intel processors have built-in hardware components which are a source of truly random numbers.
  - dahart 9y ago
    I just read about it, and it looks like a very strong and fast RNG. https://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/behind-intels-new-randomnumber-generator https://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/behind-intels-n... But, fwiw, this isn’t “truly” random in the quantum sense. It’s only difficult to predict as far as anyone knows, but is still built on deterministic processes. Radiation, on the other hand, is (as far as anyone knows) physically “truly” non-deterministic.
RpFLCL 9y ago
A similar thought experiment: If you could somehow pause the universe, create an exact duplicate, then press "play" on both at the same time, would they remain in sync? Would their futures be the same? If so, it implies that any randomness we think exists is actually deterministic but too difficult for us to currently understand. If they diverge then randomness or free will do exist. But this doesn't explain what mechanism makes it possible.
- everdev 9y ago
  Right. I suppose that would reveal if quantum fluctuations are truly random.

Armisael16 9y ago

Yes, true randomness is possible through quantum phenomenon. No, it isn’t possible to generate true randomness using deterministic processes (eg, almost all computational ones).

intralizee 9y ago
Determinists would ask, is the quantum phenomenon just ignorance by current lack of understanding to what humans can possibly know with the tools we have now? True randomness is like believing in god if your life is good or praying to a god if your life is bad.
- selestify 9y ago
  According to the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, there are no local hidden variables and the world is truly random. Even knowing the complete state of a particle will not tell you how its wave function will collapse.
  - intralizee 9y ago
    I am convinced God does not play dice.

dahart 9y ago

If your random number generator is pure software, it’s repeatable. People sell hardware random number generators that are based on Geiger counters, since radiation is (as far as we know) truly random.

martinpw 9y ago
I believe some (all?) new Intel processors have built-in hardware components which are a source of truly random numbers.
- dahart 9y ago
  I just read about it, and it looks like a very strong and fast RNG. https://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/behind-intels-new-randomnumber-generator https://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/behind-intels-n... But, fwiw, this isn’t “truly” random in the quantum sense. It’s only difficult to predict as far as anyone knows, but is still built on deterministic processes. Radiation, on the other hand, is (as far as anyone knows) physically “truly” non-deterministic.

RpFLCL 9y ago

A similar thought experiment: If you could somehow pause the universe, create an exact duplicate, then press "play" on both at the same time, would they remain in sync? Would their futures be the same? If so, it implies that any randomness we think exists is actually deterministic but too difficult for us to currently understand. If they diverge then randomness or free will do exist. But this doesn't explain what mechanism makes it possible.

everdev 9y ago
Right. I suppose that would reveal if quantum fluctuations are truly random.