4 ms·

Cars, especially in the US, is very closely linked to the location of a person. For private aircraft that is generally not the case I assume. I work for a semi

by dtech 9y ago

Cars, especially in the US, is very closely linked to the location of a person. For private aircraft that is generally not the case I assume. I work for a semi-governmental organization in the Netherlands and we track ships. Tracking company-owned commercial ships is no problem, but we are heavily restricted by law in what we can do with the location data of privately owned ships because people live on them.

rayiner 9y ago
If you want privacy maybe don’t drive around on what is literally government property.
- lovich 9y ago
  Privately owned boats and autonomous cars are government property?
  - PeterisP 9y ago
    That post probably means public roads.
    - lovich 9y ago
      I guess I can understand the argument but I don't see what kind of world view thinks that you can go out into the world r have privacy. Roads are what connect the vast majority of all land. It's not like you can just trespass into other people's land and expect privacy either
      - PeterisP 9y ago
        The world view is that what happens in public space is not private; you can't expect privacy for things you do in public. If you go to a public concert, people can look at you, note that you were here and tell that to others. That doesn't violate privacy because you had no privacy there to begin with. And in a similar manner, if you drove last thursday on a particular road, whoever bothered to look at you and your car is allowed to do so, note that you were there, write it down and tell that to others. Privacy is about your private stuff - what you do in your private space, what you have in your private items. If you go out in the public, the things that you do (and where, and when, and with whom) are not private anymore.
        waspentalive 9y ago
        In a public space a random person might 'see' you there - but they would not know who you were and may not even remember you correctly. A machine on the other hand remembers perfectly and records constantly. As far as your car-the random observer may be hard pressed to note the fact of your license plate number while trying to remember what kind and color your car was.
- gambiting 9y ago
  I'd rather think of roads(and national parks, and beaches, and mountains) as "ours" not as "government property". I have the right to be there because I'm the citizen of the country.
freeflight 9y ago
A weirdly relevant case from Switzerland [0]. The Swiss court ruled that it's totally legal to put GPS trackers on other peoples cars to track them. The court argued that a car is so public and visible that the GPS tracker is only collecting "public knowledge" anyway. [0] https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/vermischtes/wenn-am-auto-ein-gpstracker-klebt-die-polizei-aber-nichts-tut/story/12707402 https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/vermischtes/wenn-am-au...
- ramblenode 9y ago
  In the US, the SCOTUS has ruled differently: that attaching a GPS tracking device to a car constitutes a search under the Fourth Amendment and requires a warrant. See US v. Jones (2012) and Grady v. North Carolina (2015).
rocqua 9y ago
As a fellow dutchman, I'm not sure what organization would track ships. Would you mind sharing? It sounds interesting.
- dtech 9y ago
  Well, basically any nautical organization tracks them to some extent (i.e. ports, tugs, pilots, whatever). We specifically use AIS [1], tracking ships is quite easy because of it. Other methods are radar. Because it so relatively easy, there are a lot of commercial companies doing it too. The most well-known is probably MarineTraffic [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_identification_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_identification_syste... [2] https://www.marinetraffic.com/ https://www.marinetraffic.com/
  - rocqua 9y ago
    I recently heard about people being fined for sailing in a prohibited zone (I believe an exclusion zone around a drilling platform). How does that jive with the rules against keeping tracking information of personal vessels?
    - dtech 9y ago
      The tracking you can do for personal vessels is limited, not forbidden. Enforcing an prohibited zone, which exists for safety, probably is well within parameters. If you only track and save the vessel that are very close to your drilling platform because you can't track a persons movements from just that data.

by dtech 9y ago

rayiner 9y ago

If you want privacy maybe don’t drive around on what is literally government property.

lovich 9y ago
Privately owned boats and autonomous cars are government property?
- PeterisP 9y ago
  That post probably means public roads.
  - lovich 9y ago
    I guess I can understand the argument but I don't see what kind of world view thinks that you can go out into the world r have privacy. Roads are what connect the vast majority of all land. It's not like you can just trespass into other people's land and expect privacy either
    - PeterisP 9y ago
      The world view is that what happens in public space is not private; you can't expect privacy for things you do in public. If you go to a public concert, people can look at you, note that you were here and tell that to others. That doesn't violate privacy because you had no privacy there to begin with. And in a similar manner, if you drove last thursday on a particular road, whoever bothered to look at you and your car is allowed to do so, note that you were there, write it down and tell that to others. Privacy is about your private stuff - what you do in your private space, what you have in your private items. If you go out in the public, the things that you do (and where, and when, and with whom) are not private anymore.
      - waspentalive 9y ago
        In a public space a random person might 'see' you there - but they would not know who you were and may not even remember you correctly. A machine on the other hand remembers perfectly and records constantly. As far as your car-the random observer may be hard pressed to note the fact of your license plate number while trying to remember what kind and color your car was.
gambiting 9y ago
I'd rather think of roads(and national parks, and beaches, and mountains) as "ours" not as "government property". I have the right to be there because I'm the citizen of the country.

freeflight 9y ago

A weirdly relevant case from Switzerland [0]. The Swiss court ruled that it's totally legal to put GPS trackers on other peoples cars to track them. The court argued that a car is so public and visible that the GPS tracker is only collecting "public knowledge" anyway. [0] https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/vermischtes/wenn-am-auto-ein-gpstracker-klebt-die-polizei-aber-nichts-tut/story/12707402 https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama/vermischtes/wenn-am-au...

ramblenode 9y ago
In the US, the SCOTUS has ruled differently: that attaching a GPS tracking device to a car constitutes a search under the Fourth Amendment and requires a warrant. See US v. Jones (2012) and Grady v. North Carolina (2015).

rocqua 9y ago

As a fellow dutchman, I'm not sure what organization would track ships. Would you mind sharing? It sounds interesting.

dtech 9y ago
Well, basically any nautical organization tracks them to some extent (i.e. ports, tugs, pilots, whatever). We specifically use AIS [1], tracking ships is quite easy because of it. Other methods are radar. Because it so relatively easy, there are a lot of commercial companies doing it too. The most well-known is probably MarineTraffic [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_identification_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_identification_syste... [2] https://www.marinetraffic.com/ https://www.marinetraffic.com/
- rocqua 9y ago
  I recently heard about people being fined for sailing in a prohibited zone (I believe an exclusion zone around a drilling platform). How does that jive with the rules against keeping tracking information of personal vessels?
  - dtech 9y ago
    The tracking you can do for personal vessels is limited, not forbidden. Enforcing an prohibited zone, which exists for safety, probably is well within parameters. If you only track and save the vessel that are very close to your drilling platform because you can't track a persons movements from just that data.