6 ms·

That seems backwards, given planes are 10x safer than cars

by saddlerustle 9y ago

sk5t 9y ago
Well, commercial airliners are safe... small private craft, not as much.
- jsmthrowaway 9y ago
  General aviation aircraft are quite safe. I don’t have data on hand to back this up on mobile, but I’d wager more than half (honestly, more) of those GA incidents are pilot error, whether operationally or maintenance-related. Checklist culture and attention to detail is important, and has reasons for existing. It’s a perfectly fine hobby if you respect it, and there’s no sense discouraging otherwise qualified folks from flying. GA is already in severe decline.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Cars are safe too - most of the traffic deaths happen because of the drivers, not because of the hardware. I think when GP wrote "commercial airliners are safe... small private craft, not as much", they meant it from the POV of a passenger.
mikestew 9y ago
Commercial flights, yes, and that’s because we certify and license the crap out of such things. And thus we circle back around to parent’s point. I don’t have a source at hand, but IIRC flying a private plane is one of the better and more reliable ways to get yourself hurt or killed.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  My life insurance policy specifically denies a claim if I'm flying general aviation (private plane). It is that much more dangerous than commercial (on par with driving in a car). https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Private-Planes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Pr... "The National Transportation Safety Board found that in 2011, 94 percent of fatal aviation accidents occurred in what’s called general aviation. That category includes private small planes flown by amateurs as well as professionally piloted corporate flights in high-powered aircraft, such as the Gulfstream IV jet that crashed in May in Bedford, Mass., killing all seven people on board. By contrast, commercial aviation had no fatal accidents that year. Statistics from the N.T.S.B. show that general aviation aircraft average nearly seven accidents per 100,000 flight hours, compared with an average of 0.16 accidents per 100,000 hours for commercial airlines." Emphasis mine.
  - unethical_ban 9y ago
    Your insurance company sounds like a bag of dicks. Do they also deny a claim if you ride a motorcycle without a helmet, which is legal? What about skydiving, or skiing a black diamond course, or attempting Longs Peak in the winter without three layers on?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - NikolaNovak 9y ago
      Sometimes I forget the USA centric nature of forum until I read riding without helmet is legal... :0 I've see motorcycles without helmet last time I was down south in the fall and it scares the absolute beejesus bonkers out of me :/ (I've been riding for a decade, do occasional dirt trails, and have doing motorsport rallying a while back, but never enough of a daredevil to mount a bike without helmet and armour)
      - rz2k 9y ago
        Riding without a helmet is not universally legal in the US. In the past there was pressure from the federal government on state governments to enact more universal laws about wearing helmets. Now many states only require that young riders wear helmets and a handful don't have any rule. Here is an overview with a map, too: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/helmetuse/mapmotorcyclehelmets http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/helmetuse/mapmotorcycle...
        NikolaNovak 9y ago
        Thanks! Appreciate the further info! :>
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - morganvachon 9y ago
        > Sometimes I forget the USA centric nature of forum until I read riding without helmet is legal... :0 It varies by state; this is one of those occasions where the federal government leaves it up to each state to mandate as they please. You might be surprised to learn that Georgia, a deeply Republican (i.e. anti-regulation) state, has strict requirements for motorcycle safety including mandatory helmets for any vehicle classed as a motorcycle.
- tialaramex 9y ago
  Yup. There are hundreds of fatal plane crashes in the US every year. Mostly private pilots, a few charters and other commercial but non-scheduled flights such as medical evacuation. People often say things like "Plane crashes are very rare" but they're (often unconsciously) conflating "Plane crash" with "Scheduled commercial aviation accident resulting in fatalities". _Plane crashes_ happen all the time, because people fly planes and people are idiots. They forget to put enough fuel in the plane, they don't check the engine works properly, they do maintenance and forget to put back important components... they lose track of where they are, they make bad decisions, they don't plan things properly in advance, they ignore warnings, it never ends. Commercial aviation is safe _despite_ these problems, and one of the ways that's achieved is by having rules that everybody has to follow, and by incrementally improving those rules in the light of what is learned from both accidents (which are rare) and incidents short of accidents (reported anonymously to ASRS at NASA). Not following the rules to be "disruptive" will get people killed.
  - yazr 9y ago
    Is this the accepted wisdom or your opinion? What i mean - is the dominant cause human error, or is it just normal, random failures paired with a low margin environment ?!
    - Karrot_Kream 9y ago
      Aviation is a game of low margins but there's a _lot_ of training around how to handle those margins. Maximum wind speeds, maximum weight, distribution of weights, checklists for checking your engine and airframe and all that. Almost all aviation accidents are pilot error.
    - phkahler 9y ago
      It isn't simply accepted wisdom or opinion. Every fatal aircraft accident is investigated by the federal government until they find a root cause (and some non-fatal accidents). They don't just blame the pilot because it's convenient to blame the dead human either. Running out of fuel ranks near the top and is easy to verify. Failure to follow procedures is often a contributing factor if not a direct cause. Approach stalls are far too common, and that's simply pilot error - sorry, there's no other way to explain that. Mechanical failures happen too and are often a result of improper maintenance. IMHO electric planes should be more reliable and easier on the pilot, but they may never really be a thing without a major breakthrough in batteries.
- grkvlt 9y ago
  > better and more reliable ways to get yourself [...] killed I think it's also one of the more expensive ways of achieving this, too. Although I'd love to see some statistics on this, using some appropriate units. Something like 'dollars per death per mile-year' maybe? Anyone have thoughts on how to source the data and/or calculate this properly?
hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
And why do you think they are so much safer? Pretty sure it has something to do with the fact that regulations for flights and pilots are extremely stringent, while any old yokel who can fog a mirror can pass a driver's test.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
stordoff 9y ago
Does that account for pilot involvement (properly certified pilots will avoid dangerous situations more often than car drivers _because_ the requirements are much higher, and will get out of potentially dangerous situations when they arise)?
yread 9y ago
per passenger mile yes, but not per trip

That seems backwards, given planes are 10x safer than cars

sk5t 9y ago

Well, commercial airliners are safe... small private craft, not as much.

jsmthrowaway 9y ago
General aviation aircraft are quite safe. I don’t have data on hand to back this up on mobile, but I’d wager more than half (honestly, more) of those GA incidents are pilot error, whether operationally or maintenance-related. Checklist culture and attention to detail is important, and has reasons for existing. It’s a perfectly fine hobby if you respect it, and there’s no sense discouraging otherwise qualified folks from flying. GA is already in severe decline.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Cars are safe too - most of the traffic deaths happen because of the drivers, not because of the hardware. I think when GP wrote "commercial airliners are safe... small private craft, not as much", they meant it from the POV of a passenger.

mikestew 9y ago

Commercial flights, yes, and that’s because we certify and license the crap out of such things. And thus we circle back around to parent’s point. I don’t have a source at hand, but IIRC flying a private plane is one of the better and more reliable ways to get yourself hurt or killed.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
My life insurance policy specifically denies a claim if I'm flying general aviation (private plane). It is that much more dangerous than commercial (on par with driving in a car). https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Private-Planes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Pr... "The National Transportation Safety Board found that in 2011, 94 percent of fatal aviation accidents occurred in what’s called general aviation. That category includes private small planes flown by amateurs as well as professionally piloted corporate flights in high-powered aircraft, such as the Gulfstream IV jet that crashed in May in Bedford, Mass., killing all seven people on board. By contrast, commercial aviation had no fatal accidents that year. Statistics from the N.T.S.B. show that general aviation aircraft average nearly seven accidents per 100,000 flight hours, compared with an average of 0.16 accidents per 100,000 hours for commercial airlines." Emphasis mine.
- unethical_ban 9y ago
  Your insurance company sounds like a bag of dicks. Do they also deny a claim if you ride a motorcycle without a helmet, which is legal? What about skydiving, or skiing a black diamond course, or attempting Longs Peak in the winter without three layers on?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - NikolaNovak 9y ago
    Sometimes I forget the USA centric nature of forum until I read riding without helmet is legal... :0 I've see motorcycles without helmet last time I was down south in the fall and it scares the absolute beejesus bonkers out of me :/ (I've been riding for a decade, do occasional dirt trails, and have doing motorsport rallying a while back, but never enough of a daredevil to mount a bike without helmet and armour)
    - rz2k 9y ago
      Riding without a helmet is not universally legal in the US. In the past there was pressure from the federal government on state governments to enact more universal laws about wearing helmets. Now many states only require that young riders wear helmets and a handful don't have any rule. Here is an overview with a map, too: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/helmetuse/mapmotorcyclehelmets http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/helmetuse/mapmotorcycle...
      - NikolaNovak 9y ago
        Thanks! Appreciate the further info! :>
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - morganvachon 9y ago
      > Sometimes I forget the USA centric nature of forum until I read riding without helmet is legal... :0 It varies by state; this is one of those occasions where the federal government leaves it up to each state to mandate as they please. You might be surprised to learn that Georgia, a deeply Republican (i.e. anti-regulation) state, has strict requirements for motorcycle safety including mandatory helmets for any vehicle classed as a motorcycle.
tialaramex 9y ago
Yup. There are hundreds of fatal plane crashes in the US every year. Mostly private pilots, a few charters and other commercial but non-scheduled flights such as medical evacuation. People often say things like "Plane crashes are very rare" but they're (often unconsciously) conflating "Plane crash" with "Scheduled commercial aviation accident resulting in fatalities". _Plane crashes_ happen all the time, because people fly planes and people are idiots. They forget to put enough fuel in the plane, they don't check the engine works properly, they do maintenance and forget to put back important components... they lose track of where they are, they make bad decisions, they don't plan things properly in advance, they ignore warnings, it never ends. Commercial aviation is safe _despite_ these problems, and one of the ways that's achieved is by having rules that everybody has to follow, and by incrementally improving those rules in the light of what is learned from both accidents (which are rare) and incidents short of accidents (reported anonymously to ASRS at NASA). Not following the rules to be "disruptive" will get people killed.
- yazr 9y ago
  Is this the accepted wisdom or your opinion? What i mean - is the dominant cause human error, or is it just normal, random failures paired with a low margin environment ?!
  - Karrot_Kream 9y ago
    Aviation is a game of low margins but there's a _lot_ of training around how to handle those margins. Maximum wind speeds, maximum weight, distribution of weights, checklists for checking your engine and airframe and all that. Almost all aviation accidents are pilot error.
  - phkahler 9y ago
    It isn't simply accepted wisdom or opinion. Every fatal aircraft accident is investigated by the federal government until they find a root cause (and some non-fatal accidents). They don't just blame the pilot because it's convenient to blame the dead human either. Running out of fuel ranks near the top and is easy to verify. Failure to follow procedures is often a contributing factor if not a direct cause. Approach stalls are far too common, and that's simply pilot error - sorry, there's no other way to explain that. Mechanical failures happen too and are often a result of improper maintenance. IMHO electric planes should be more reliable and easier on the pilot, but they may never really be a thing without a major breakthrough in batteries.
grkvlt 9y ago
> better and more reliable ways to get yourself [...] killed I think it's also one of the more expensive ways of achieving this, too. Although I'd love to see some statistics on this, using some appropriate units. Something like 'dollars per death per mile-year' maybe? Anyone have thoughts on how to source the data and/or calculate this properly?

hn_throwaway_99 9y ago

And why do you think they are so much safer? Pretty sure it has something to do with the fact that regulations for flights and pilots are extremely stringent, while any old yokel who can fog a mirror can pass a driver's test.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

stordoff 9y ago

Does that account for pilot involvement (properly certified pilots will avoid dangerous situations more often than car drivers _because_ the requirements are much higher, and will get out of potentially dangerous situations when they arise)?

yread 9y ago

per passenger mile yes, but not per trip