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Not the person you are responding to, but as someone who probably feels the same way, I'm ok with someone disrupting my local taxi monopoly by having someone wh

Not the person you are responding to, but as someone who probably feels the same way, I'm ok with someone disrupting my local taxi monopoly by having someone who is not certified driving the car that is taking me to the airport, because I can largely agree that most humans can drive a car. I'm much less ok with the person flying my airplane not being certified.

saddlerustle 9y ago
That seems backwards, given planes are 10x safer than cars
- sk5t 9y ago
  Well, commercial airliners are safe... small private craft, not as much.
  - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
    General aviation aircraft are quite safe. I don’t have data on hand to back this up on mobile, but I’d wager more than half (honestly, more) of those GA incidents are pilot error, whether operationally or maintenance-related. Checklist culture and attention to detail is important, and has reasons for existing. It’s a perfectly fine hobby if you respect it, and there’s no sense discouraging otherwise qualified folks from flying. GA is already in severe decline.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      Cars are safe too - most of the traffic deaths happen because of the drivers, not because of the hardware. I think when GP wrote "commercial airliners are safe... small private craft, not as much", they meant it from the POV of a passenger.
- mikestew 9y ago
  Commercial flights, yes, and that’s because we certify and license the crap out of such things. And thus we circle back around to parent’s point. I don’t have a source at hand, but IIRC flying a private plane is one of the better and more reliable ways to get yourself hurt or killed.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    My life insurance policy specifically denies a claim if I'm flying general aviation (private plane). It is that much more dangerous than commercial (on par with driving in a car). https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Private-Planes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Pr... "The National Transportation Safety Board found that in 2011, 94 percent of fatal aviation accidents occurred in what’s called general aviation. That category includes private small planes flown by amateurs as well as professionally piloted corporate flights in high-powered aircraft, such as the Gulfstream IV jet that crashed in May in Bedford, Mass., killing all seven people on board. By contrast, commercial aviation had no fatal accidents that year. Statistics from the N.T.S.B. show that general aviation aircraft average nearly seven accidents per 100,000 flight hours, compared with an average of 0.16 accidents per 100,000 hours for commercial airlines." Emphasis mine.
    - unethical_ban 9y ago
      Your insurance company sounds like a bag of dicks. Do they also deny a claim if you ride a motorcycle without a helmet, which is legal? What about skydiving, or skiing a black diamond course, or attempting Longs Peak in the winter without three layers on?
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - NikolaNovak 9y ago
        Sometimes I forget the USA centric nature of forum until I read riding without helmet is legal... :0 I've see motorcycles without helmet last time I was down south in the fall and it scares the absolute beejesus bonkers out of me :/ (I've been riding for a decade, do occasional dirt trails, and have doing motorsport rallying a while back, but never enough of a daredevil to mount a bike without helmet and armour)
- hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
  And why do you think they are so much safer? Pretty sure it has something to do with the fact that regulations for flights and pilots are extremely stringent, while any old yokel who can fog a mirror can pass a driver's test.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- stordoff 9y ago
  Does that account for pilot involvement (properly certified pilots will avoid dangerous situations more often than car drivers _because_ the requirements are much higher, and will get out of potentially dangerous situations when they arise)?
- yread 9y ago
  per passenger mile yes, but not per trip
yuhong 9y ago
And fortunately commercial pilot licenses are semi-common too.
- f33g91pv43232f 9y ago
  But an ATPL (airline transport pilot license) is hard and much more rare, unlike CPL it requires significant experience and training. Those are what you want for an airline. "Commercial pilot license" (CPL) is something that even I as a private pilot can rather easily add to my repertoire, it does not require much experience. Some answers to the question "Difference between CPL and ATPL": - https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-CPL-and-ATPL-pilot-licence-which-one-is-better https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-CPL-and... - https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/18vzuj/can_someone_explain_the_difference_between_cpl/ https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/18vzuj/can_someone_... - https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-168050.html https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-168050.html
chx 9y ago
> I can largely agree that most humans can drive a car. This is a society level agreement I am absolutely baffled by. Most people can't or at least not well and there are not studies I know into this. Reflexes, decision making processes etc are all lacking in case something bad happens. Edit: thanks for the swift, numerous downvotes! Care to link a few studies so I can learn more where I am wrong?
- ghaff 9y ago
  I didn't downvote but I assume it's because you made IMO a pretty ridiculous, or at least completely unactionable statement. Life, including modern life, is all about balancing costs and benefits. One of the benefits (for most people) of modern life is that you can hop in a car and drive places. A strict training and licensing regime along with other rules and regulations similar to those that apply to pilots, especially commercial and military ones, is incompatible with that benefit. There are various laws and rules but they're deliberately set at a "most adults can drive" level. You may not like that tradeoff but most people disagree.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    > A strict training and licensing regime along with other rules and regulations similar to those that apply to pilots, especially commercial and military ones, is incompatible with that benefit. The full set of regulations maybe, but I believe you could retain the "most adults can drive" level while making everyone go through much stricter training and licensing regime. Right now in Europe and US, the required training and examinations are ridiculously weak (amounts to basically explaining the UI of the car and going over the basic maneuvers until the point you no longer spectacularly fail at them). It only shows that as a society, we never grew the required respect for the driving. I think it's because back when the expectations set, there were much less cars on the road.
  - chx 9y ago
    > One of the benefits (for most people) of modern life is that you can hop in a car and drive places. The price we pay for that is grimly high.
amptorn 9y ago
> having someone who is not certified driving the car You mean, someone who hasn't passed a driving test? Or someone who had their license revoked?
philipwhiuk 9y ago
I'm sorry but you're an idiot. If you haven't got a license to drive a car you shouldn't be driving on the road without close supervision by qualified driver, much less taking paying passengers. Qualified drivers are dangerous. Unqualified unsupervised drivers are a lethality to everyone.

saddlerustle 9y ago

That seems backwards, given planes are 10x safer than cars

sk5t 9y ago
Well, commercial airliners are safe... small private craft, not as much.
- jsmthrowaway 9y ago
  General aviation aircraft are quite safe. I don’t have data on hand to back this up on mobile, but I’d wager more than half (honestly, more) of those GA incidents are pilot error, whether operationally or maintenance-related. Checklist culture and attention to detail is important, and has reasons for existing. It’s a perfectly fine hobby if you respect it, and there’s no sense discouraging otherwise qualified folks from flying. GA is already in severe decline.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Cars are safe too - most of the traffic deaths happen because of the drivers, not because of the hardware. I think when GP wrote "commercial airliners are safe... small private craft, not as much", they meant it from the POV of a passenger.
mikestew 9y ago
Commercial flights, yes, and that’s because we certify and license the crap out of such things. And thus we circle back around to parent’s point. I don’t have a source at hand, but IIRC flying a private plane is one of the better and more reliable ways to get yourself hurt or killed.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  My life insurance policy specifically denies a claim if I'm flying general aviation (private plane). It is that much more dangerous than commercial (on par with driving in a car). https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Private-Planes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/The-Dangers-of-Pr... "The National Transportation Safety Board found that in 2011, 94 percent of fatal aviation accidents occurred in what’s called general aviation. That category includes private small planes flown by amateurs as well as professionally piloted corporate flights in high-powered aircraft, such as the Gulfstream IV jet that crashed in May in Bedford, Mass., killing all seven people on board. By contrast, commercial aviation had no fatal accidents that year. Statistics from the N.T.S.B. show that general aviation aircraft average nearly seven accidents per 100,000 flight hours, compared with an average of 0.16 accidents per 100,000 hours for commercial airlines." Emphasis mine.
  - unethical_ban 9y ago
    Your insurance company sounds like a bag of dicks. Do they also deny a claim if you ride a motorcycle without a helmet, which is legal? What about skydiving, or skiing a black diamond course, or attempting Longs Peak in the winter without three layers on?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - NikolaNovak 9y ago
      Sometimes I forget the USA centric nature of forum until I read riding without helmet is legal... :0 I've see motorcycles without helmet last time I was down south in the fall and it scares the absolute beejesus bonkers out of me :/ (I've been riding for a decade, do occasional dirt trails, and have doing motorsport rallying a while back, but never enough of a daredevil to mount a bike without helmet and armour)
hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
And why do you think they are so much safer? Pretty sure it has something to do with the fact that regulations for flights and pilots are extremely stringent, while any old yokel who can fog a mirror can pass a driver's test.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
stordoff 9y ago
Does that account for pilot involvement (properly certified pilots will avoid dangerous situations more often than car drivers _because_ the requirements are much higher, and will get out of potentially dangerous situations when they arise)?
yread 9y ago
per passenger mile yes, but not per trip

yuhong 9y ago

And fortunately commercial pilot licenses are semi-common too.

f33g91pv43232f 9y ago
But an ATPL (airline transport pilot license) is hard and much more rare, unlike CPL it requires significant experience and training. Those are what you want for an airline. "Commercial pilot license" (CPL) is something that even I as a private pilot can rather easily add to my repertoire, it does not require much experience. Some answers to the question "Difference between CPL and ATPL": - https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-CPL-and-ATPL-pilot-licence-which-one-is-better https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-CPL-and... - https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/18vzuj/can_someone_explain_the_difference_between_cpl/ https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/18vzuj/can_someone_... - https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-168050.html https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-168050.html

chx 9y ago

> I can largely agree that most humans can drive a car. This is a society level agreement I am absolutely baffled by. Most people can't or at least not well and there are not studies I know into this. Reflexes, decision making processes etc are all lacking in case something bad happens. Edit: thanks for the swift, numerous downvotes! Care to link a few studies so I can learn more where I am wrong?

ghaff 9y ago
I didn't downvote but I assume it's because you made IMO a pretty ridiculous, or at least completely unactionable statement. Life, including modern life, is all about balancing costs and benefits. One of the benefits (for most people) of modern life is that you can hop in a car and drive places. A strict training and licensing regime along with other rules and regulations similar to those that apply to pilots, especially commercial and military ones, is incompatible with that benefit. There are various laws and rules but they're deliberately set at a "most adults can drive" level. You may not like that tradeoff but most people disagree.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  > A strict training and licensing regime along with other rules and regulations similar to those that apply to pilots, especially commercial and military ones, is incompatible with that benefit. The full set of regulations maybe, but I believe you could retain the "most adults can drive" level while making everyone go through much stricter training and licensing regime. Right now in Europe and US, the required training and examinations are ridiculously weak (amounts to basically explaining the UI of the car and going over the basic maneuvers until the point you no longer spectacularly fail at them). It only shows that as a society, we never grew the required respect for the driving. I think it's because back when the expectations set, there were much less cars on the road.
- chx 9y ago
  > One of the benefits (for most people) of modern life is that you can hop in a car and drive places. The price we pay for that is grimly high.

amptorn 9y ago

> having someone who is not certified driving the car You mean, someone who hasn't passed a driving test? Or someone who had their license revoked?

philipwhiuk 9y ago

I'm sorry but you're an idiot. If you haven't got a license to drive a car you shouldn't be driving on the road without close supervision by qualified driver, much less taking paying passengers. Qualified drivers are dangerous. Unqualified unsupervised drivers are a lethality to everyone.