5 ms·

Why do Americans get their credit card stolen so often?

by axlee 9y ago

devereaux 9y ago
Because we don't care. We can get a new one for free in a few days, we have many spare lines of credit, and we will not be responsible for any fraudulent charges
thanksgiving 9y ago
I would say the cynical answer is because our credit cards are valuable. We have the mentality that we are somehow responsible for other people's crimes/criminal negligence. Just the other day, I read about how someone managed to pick up over a thousand dollars in overdraft fees when he was struggling to make ends meet and now he never had that problem because he has access to credit cards (that he can afford to pay off in full every month so it doesn't cost him much extra).
- guitarbill 9y ago
  > I would say the cynical answer is because our credit cards are valuable This, but not for the reasons you think. In America, it is stupidly easy to get credit in general, and credit cards have high limits. Europe is much, much more conservative in that regard.
x0x0 9y ago
Because the penalties to business for allowing this to happen are nowhere near high enough; instead, it's largely the problem of the individuals involved.
- lsc 9y ago
  This is... the opposite of my impression, well, sortof. There aren't penalties for the business your credit card is stolen from (and I believe your credit card is usually stolen from a business you legitimately did business with.) However, the thief? once they get that credit card? they use it with a merchant to buy a thing. For example, last time my card was stolen, I saw a charge for some expensive jewelry from a Florida jeweler on my account. I called my credit card company and they refunded the money to my account... so who is left holding the bag? that jewler in Florda. When I had a merchant account (selling VPSs) I had a few customers like that; the credit card company simply takes the money back, and it's up to you, the merchant, to try to get back what you just sold to the customer... something that is usually impossible.
  - x0x0 9y ago
    I meant there's very little penalty to the business that allowed the theft to occur, so I can't see what we disagree about? Oh, nm, you meant that businesses that unknowingly accept stolen cards get screwed. They certainly do. But imagine a business had to write a $50 check to each and every cardholder whose card they leaked. I bet there would be a miracle, and systems would become securable.
    - lsc 9y ago
      I agree that if there were more consequences for compromised businesses, there would be fewer compromises... but it would also massively raise the barrier to getting a merchant account. Essentially, you'd live in a world where everyone used paypal or something like it. (I think apple pay would be in the running, too, but I think this might end up being natural-monopoly-ish) The best way to solve the problem, I think, is to quit using shared secrets across minimally trusted parties. Public key cryptography is... I'm not going to say unbreakable, but it's pretty good. it's fairly secure. We need to enforce that on all physical card readers, which will make 'skimming' rather a lot more difficult, and then after that we need to figure out a card reader users can use on their computers and cellphones. The technology is mostly there; most of my cellphones support some kind of secure wireless public key stuff, and most of my phones do too. We need to make this ecosystem work well, solve the software problems, and then make it so that your credit card number is just an identifier, not an authentication token.
      - x0x0 9y ago
        That sounds pretty much like apple pay, no? If visa, mastercard, and the merchant banks can't be bothered to make it, then maybe apple deserves their cut.
        lsc 9y ago
        Yes, apple pay, I think, occupies a similar place to paypal I have run a business that recieved payments through paypal; I have not run a business that recieved payments through apple pay, but my impression is that they both do the same thing... they let a business accept payments without knowing the user's credit card number, which would be essential to businesses if there was significant liability associated with credit card breaches.
aianus 9y ago
No Chip and PIN mandated at most checkouts and ATMs. It's much, much easier to print a fake credit card with a magstripe than a valid chip card. Also, Americans are richer and have bigger credit lines so the cards are worth more on the black market.
lsc 9y ago
Because we allow you to use the credit card without using the chip. You buy from a compromised merchant, or a merchant that isn't properly hashing it's credit cards? bam, your card is stolen. You put your card in a compromised card reader? your card is stolen. With a chip, (a smartcard credit card, like you use in Europe) this is way harder. Yes, yes, in America, our credit cards now have chips, too... but they also have the old magstripe, and everyone buys things from the internet anyhow, so we're giving that number out to everyone. The other side of this is that the laws in the US are heavily in the customer's favor. It's a pain in the ass, you have to complain about the charges, but it's very rare that we are actually responsible for any of the charges. (The merchant who accepted the stolen credit card is left holding that particular bag.) Because of this? Personally, I don't worry too much about it. I figure any one of my cards might be out of commission at any point of time, and periodically I'll just call my credit card company and tell them to give me a new credit card number, just so I have a fresh one that isn't floating around all the darknet sites. I figure a credit card being compromised every five years or so is 'normal'
- konschubert 9y ago
  But it's the same in Europe. My credit card has that magstripe too. I've never used it, but it has it. And I enter my credit card number in places online. So, I don't see how I'm more protected?
  - lsc 9y ago
    I didn't know that. I thought that chip and pin was the norm in Europe, and that getting a transaction reversed as a European customer was way harder than for American customers because of this. But... it sounds like I'm wrong.
    - thirdsun 9y ago
      That's not a credit card. In Germany we call it an ec card or Girocard, it's a debit card. The amount is deducted immediately from your bank account when using it and it requires PIN and chip.

Why do Americans get their credit card stolen so often?

by axlee 9y ago

Why do Americans get their credit card stolen so often?

Because we don't care. We can get a new one for free in a few days, we have many spare lines of credit, and we will not be responsible for any fraudulent charges

thanksgiving 9y ago

I would say the cynical answer is because our credit cards are valuable. We have the mentality that we are somehow responsible for other people's crimes/criminal negligence. Just the other day, I read about how someone managed to pick up over a thousand dollars in overdraft fees when he was struggling to make ends meet and now he never had that problem because he has access to credit cards (that he can afford to pay off in full every month so it doesn't cost him much extra).

guitarbill 9y ago
> I would say the cynical answer is because our credit cards are valuable This, but not for the reasons you think. In America, it is stupidly easy to get credit in general, and credit cards have high limits. Europe is much, much more conservative in that regard.

x0x0 9y ago

Because the penalties to business for allowing this to happen are nowhere near high enough; instead, it's largely the problem of the individuals involved.

lsc 9y ago
This is... the opposite of my impression, well, sortof. There aren't penalties for the business your credit card is stolen from (and I believe your credit card is usually stolen from a business you legitimately did business with.) However, the thief? once they get that credit card? they use it with a merchant to buy a thing. For example, last time my card was stolen, I saw a charge for some expensive jewelry from a Florida jeweler on my account. I called my credit card company and they refunded the money to my account... so who is left holding the bag? that jewler in Florda. When I had a merchant account (selling VPSs) I had a few customers like that; the credit card company simply takes the money back, and it's up to you, the merchant, to try to get back what you just sold to the customer... something that is usually impossible.
- x0x0 9y ago
  I meant there's very little penalty to the business that allowed the theft to occur, so I can't see what we disagree about? Oh, nm, you meant that businesses that unknowingly accept stolen cards get screwed. They certainly do. But imagine a business had to write a $50 check to each and every cardholder whose card they leaked. I bet there would be a miracle, and systems would become securable.
  - lsc 9y ago
    I agree that if there were more consequences for compromised businesses, there would be fewer compromises... but it would also massively raise the barrier to getting a merchant account. Essentially, you'd live in a world where everyone used paypal or something like it. (I think apple pay would be in the running, too, but I think this might end up being natural-monopoly-ish) The best way to solve the problem, I think, is to quit using shared secrets across minimally trusted parties. Public key cryptography is... I'm not going to say unbreakable, but it's pretty good. it's fairly secure. We need to enforce that on all physical card readers, which will make 'skimming' rather a lot more difficult, and then after that we need to figure out a card reader users can use on their computers and cellphones. The technology is mostly there; most of my cellphones support some kind of secure wireless public key stuff, and most of my phones do too. We need to make this ecosystem work well, solve the software problems, and then make it so that your credit card number is just an identifier, not an authentication token.
    - x0x0 9y ago
      That sounds pretty much like apple pay, no? If visa, mastercard, and the merchant banks can't be bothered to make it, then maybe apple deserves their cut.
      - lsc 9y ago
        Yes, apple pay, I think, occupies a similar place to paypal I have run a business that recieved payments through paypal; I have not run a business that recieved payments through apple pay, but my impression is that they both do the same thing... they let a business accept payments without knowing the user's credit card number, which would be essential to businesses if there was significant liability associated with credit card breaches.

aianus 9y ago

No Chip and PIN mandated at most checkouts and ATMs. It's much, much easier to print a fake credit card with a magstripe than a valid chip card. Also, Americans are richer and have bigger credit lines so the cards are worth more on the black market.

lsc 9y ago

Because we allow you to use the credit card without using the chip. You buy from a compromised merchant, or a merchant that isn't properly hashing it's credit cards? bam, your card is stolen. You put your card in a compromised card reader? your card is stolen. With a chip, (a smartcard credit card, like you use in Europe) this is way harder. Yes, yes, in America, our credit cards now have chips, too... but they also have the old magstripe, and everyone buys things from the internet anyhow, so we're giving that number out to everyone. The other side of this is that the laws in the US are heavily in the customer's favor. It's a pain in the ass, you have to complain about the charges, but it's very rare that we are actually responsible for any of the charges. (The merchant who accepted the stolen credit card is left holding that particular bag.) Because of this? Personally, I don't worry too much about it. I figure any one of my cards might be out of commission at any point of time, and periodically I'll just call my credit card company and tell them to give me a new credit card number, just so I have a fresh one that isn't floating around all the darknet sites. I figure a credit card being compromised every five years or so is 'normal'

konschubert 9y ago
But it's the same in Europe. My credit card has that magstripe too. I've never used it, but it has it. And I enter my credit card number in places online. So, I don't see how I'm more protected?
- lsc 9y ago
  I didn't know that. I thought that chip and pin was the norm in Europe, and that getting a transaction reversed as a European customer was way harder than for American customers because of this. But... it sounds like I'm wrong.
  - thirdsun 9y ago
    That's not a credit card. In Germany we call it an ec card or Girocard, it's a debit card. The amount is deducted immediately from your bank account when using it and it requires PIN and chip.