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Same thing with concert tickets though? Buy tickets for the next day, and within 48 hours there is no way to take it back. And these are not currencies under t

Same thing with concert tickets though? Buy tickets for the next day, and within 48 hours there is no way to take it back. And these are not currencies under the law.

root_axis 9y ago
It's not at all the same thing. The incentive for most people to buy concert tickets is to see the concert or scalp the tickets; chargebacks that occur in this context are on an individual basis and the banks will ban customers that abuse this chargeback process. In some cases, the merchant may be at fault, perhaps selling tickets to a show that does not transpire as described and the concert-goers may issue chargebacks en masse in response, but in this case the banks identify the source of the problem was not _the individuals_ (who will probably have relatively few if any chargebacks in their account history) and will actually penalize the merchant, sometimes banning them altogether if they cannot reasonably explain the chargeback behavior or if chargebacks become a pattern for that merchant. With blockchain tokens there is no incentive except profit, so if the blockchain token markets create a panic among buyers, it can cause mass chargebacks at _any_ time within the chargeback window, this is clearly a completely different risk model than concert tickets. At the end of the day, all that's really happening here is the credit card companies are banning transactions from merchants with high chargeback history, a totally common practice.
- patrickg_zill 9y ago
  Your argument makes no sense and provides no evidence. Chargebacks can be initiated at any time within the chargeback window, regardless of what is purchased. Further, chargebacks hurt the MERCHANT. MERCHANTS are the ones banned and blacklisted (there is a blacklist file shared among all VISA issuers) for bad behavior. IF merchants had high chargebacks, they would state that - there is no NDA preventing the card issuers from stating it. And even if there were, there are higher-risk tiers for such merchants (like merchants that sell online porn). How much experience do you have dealing with VISA etc. ...?
  - squeegee5 9y ago
    Guy's got an ax to grind, and is happy to make up nonsense regarding systems he doesn't understand. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16262640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16262640
    - root_axis 9y ago
      You're replying to someone else, with a passive-aggressive swipe at me, and justifying it by linking to a prior conversation between me and yourself. Take a step back and consider that you might perfectly fit the description of someone with an axe to grind.
  - root_axis 9y ago
    > Chargebacks can be initiated at any time within the chargeback window, regardless of what is purchased. Yes, but as I already explained, the incentive to chargeback is NOT the same regardless of what is purchased. Chargebacks are relatively rare because most people only chargeback if there is a dispute with the merchant, but outside of fraudsters, its not that common for people to chargeback on a product months later. Even with high risk products like porn, there are predictable chargeback rates that can be factored into the overall profitability of the product category, but with blockchain tokens a sudden shift in price (like the one we're seeing now) can cause a large and abrupt spike in chargebacks all from the same product category. Wild shifts in the price of a digital commodity is a unique quality of blockchain tokens that totally changes the chargeback risk profile. > How much experience do you have dealing with VISA etc How much experience do you have in the lending business? This has nothing to do with VISA, this is about banks that have to make a decision about lending money. Companies that lend money are valued in large part based on the quality of the loans on their books; when the books are loaded up with crap accounts made up of gambling debt from blockchain enthusiasts who could go bankrupt overnight, it does not inspire confidence.
    - patrickg_zill 9y ago
      You're some kind of mind-reader, and can read the minds of all 1.5 million (or whatever the number is) people who initiate chargebacks each year on their credit cards? I have actual experience as a credit card merchant for 10+ years. You have shown yourself to have no real-world knowledge of the situation.

Same thing with concert tickets though? Buy tickets for the next day, and within 48 hours there is no way to take it back. And these are not currencies under the law.

root_axis 9y ago

It's not at all the same thing. The incentive for most people to buy concert tickets is to see the concert or scalp the tickets; chargebacks that occur in this context are on an individual basis and the banks will ban customers that abuse this chargeback process. In some cases, the merchant may be at fault, perhaps selling tickets to a show that does not transpire as described and the concert-goers may issue chargebacks en masse in response, but in this case the banks identify the source of the problem was not _the individuals_ (who will probably have relatively few if any chargebacks in their account history) and will actually penalize the merchant, sometimes banning them altogether if they cannot reasonably explain the chargeback behavior or if chargebacks become a pattern for that merchant. With blockchain tokens there is no incentive except profit, so if the blockchain token markets create a panic among buyers, it can cause mass chargebacks at _any_ time within the chargeback window, this is clearly a completely different risk model than concert tickets. At the end of the day, all that's really happening here is the credit card companies are banning transactions from merchants with high chargeback history, a totally common practice.

patrickg_zill 9y ago
Your argument makes no sense and provides no evidence. Chargebacks can be initiated at any time within the chargeback window, regardless of what is purchased. Further, chargebacks hurt the MERCHANT. MERCHANTS are the ones banned and blacklisted (there is a blacklist file shared among all VISA issuers) for bad behavior. IF merchants had high chargebacks, they would state that - there is no NDA preventing the card issuers from stating it. And even if there were, there are higher-risk tiers for such merchants (like merchants that sell online porn). How much experience do you have dealing with VISA etc. ...?
- squeegee5 9y ago
  Guy's got an ax to grind, and is happy to make up nonsense regarding systems he doesn't understand. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16262640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16262640
  - root_axis 9y ago
    You're replying to someone else, with a passive-aggressive swipe at me, and justifying it by linking to a prior conversation between me and yourself. Take a step back and consider that you might perfectly fit the description of someone with an axe to grind.
- root_axis 9y ago
  > Chargebacks can be initiated at any time within the chargeback window, regardless of what is purchased. Yes, but as I already explained, the incentive to chargeback is NOT the same regardless of what is purchased. Chargebacks are relatively rare because most people only chargeback if there is a dispute with the merchant, but outside of fraudsters, its not that common for people to chargeback on a product months later. Even with high risk products like porn, there are predictable chargeback rates that can be factored into the overall profitability of the product category, but with blockchain tokens a sudden shift in price (like the one we're seeing now) can cause a large and abrupt spike in chargebacks all from the same product category. Wild shifts in the price of a digital commodity is a unique quality of blockchain tokens that totally changes the chargeback risk profile. > How much experience do you have dealing with VISA etc How much experience do you have in the lending business? This has nothing to do with VISA, this is about banks that have to make a decision about lending money. Companies that lend money are valued in large part based on the quality of the loans on their books; when the books are loaded up with crap accounts made up of gambling debt from blockchain enthusiasts who could go bankrupt overnight, it does not inspire confidence.
  - patrickg_zill 9y ago
    You're some kind of mind-reader, and can read the minds of all 1.5 million (or whatever the number is) people who initiate chargebacks each year on their credit cards? I have actual experience as a credit card merchant for 10+ years. You have shown yourself to have no real-world knowledge of the situation.