4 ms·

What a bunch libertarian non-sense. Health Care is not market since there is hardly any market opaqueness. You simply don't know how much anything costs in heal

by mullen 9y ago

What a bunch libertarian non-sense. Health Care is not market since there is hardly any market opaqueness. You simply don't know how much anything costs in health care, its all a big mystery until you get your bill. Health providers are out to make sure you never know how much something costs until it is time to pay for it. It is very difficult to shop around for prices in the American health care system. Your average person can't do it and most really capable people could not do it either. Giving people cash as their Medicare/Medicaid would be a complete disaster. Bulk buying by the government goes right out the window, no cost controls at all and completely ignores what insurance is in the first place. People are generally dumb. If you gave them cash and said this is your medicare, they would take it and spend it on everything but medical care. In the end, they would get sick and die or be crippled or worse, they would still go to the hospital and then leave everyone else with the bill. We know prices would never drop to the floor because that is the system we have in place now and prices keep going up.

Consultant32452 9y ago
>Health Care is not market since there is hardly any market opaqueness. You simply don't know how much anything costs in health care, its all a big mystery until you get your bill. Health providers are out to make sure you never know how much something costs until it is time to pay for it. Define "how much something costs?" I can pull up the spec sheet from my insurance company and tell you the in network price and out of network price for just about anything. The crappy system we have now sets the price between you and the insurance company. It's not that the providers don't want you to know how much something costs, they don't know how much it costs. Conversely, I can go into the local urgent care here, a place that caters to many uninsured. The prices for their services are literally posted on the wall, not unlike the menu at a fast food restaurant. You know exactly how much an x-ray costs, or a cold/flu visit, or a cast, etc. When people are paying for these services with their own money and the prices aren't the result of some individualized, convoluted pay schedule with your insurance provider, then the prices suddenly become extremely transparent. >and completely ignores what insurance is in the first place. Insurance is there to help you out in the event of a disaster, not to pay your ongoing day to day costs. So let's make sure we're really talking about insurance. >If you gave them cash and said this is your medicare, they would take it and spend it on everything but medical care. In the end, they would get sick and die or be crippled or worse, That is historically incorrect. Yes, people may choose to spend less on healthcare than you would like them to, but why do you feel the need to be so authoritarian about your opinion on what's best for them? >then leave everyone else with the bill. Only if people like you force it on us. >We know prices would never drop to the floor because that is the system we have in place now and prices keep going up. As was pointed out by another poster the prices for elective surgeries like LASIK which are not covered by health insurance are going down over time. It's funny to me that you have no problem accepting that some people would take their Medicare money and blow it on something else, but you think that healthcare providers would not do anything to try to convince those people to spend their dollars with them.
- tomkarlo 9y ago
  >Define "how much something costs?" I can pull up the spec sheet from my insurance company and tell you the in network price and out of network price for just about anything. Except if you go in for a major procedure, you don't know what you'll end up needing off that price list, and often, neither does your doctor. So even if providers were perfectly transparent about what a procedure would cost (and it's well-established they're not - just try calling and asking for prices) the nature of the service being purchased is that you sometimes don't know exactly what you're buying until it's too late to change providers. A few years back I broke my leg and went to the hospital. Halfway through the process I was offered a couple of Vicodin, which I would later be billed $1,000 for. Was I supposed to haggle about them with that, or take my xray and hobble out down the street to someone who would sell me vicodin cheaper?
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    >Except if you go in for a major procedure, you don't know what you'll end up needing off that price list, and often, neither does your doctor. One of two things is going to happen here. One is I have a flat rate for a hospital visit, so the cost is known no matter what I need. Second, if I'm hitting my out of pocket max then that cost is also known. >A few years back I broke my leg and went to the hospital. Halfway through the process I was offered a couple of Vicodin, which I would later be billed $1,000 for. Was I supposed to haggle about them with that, or take my xray and hobble out down the street to someone who would sell me vicodin cheaper? The only reason they could get away with even pretending like they would charge you $1k for a vicodin is because of the distorted system we have where everyone pretends the money comes out of the insurance company's money instead of your own.
    - tomkarlo 9y ago
      Let's say I was paying out of pocket. (Given my HDHP, I effectively was.) Would that somehow magically change my ability to negotiate the price of those pills? No. It's not a "distortion". It's the inherent problem of trying to turn healthcare into a market. The dynamics of service delivery make it impossible for consumes to negotiate or compare prices in the manner necessary to have a functioning market. I'd also note, that since I've never gone to any other healthcare institution with a broken leg, I have *no way to compare my experience to other providers. This is yet another way in that healthcare does not lend itself to market solutions.
humanrebar 9y ago
> Health Care is not market since there is hardly any market opaqueness. "Market" means "crowd sourced pricing". The alternative is a person or a small group of people setting prices, controlling access, setting standards, etc. Once you think that's a better idea, you are responsible for further clarifying how those people will be held accountable for their decisions. I don't see a non-market proposal that is honest about the concentration of power and actually tackles the problem of accountability. I don't want a national medical code mess growing alongside our tax code. I don't want new and exciting fields of healthcare law and lobbying opening up. I don't want (pick: Donald Trump or Barak Obama) being the national Hospital-Administrator-in-Chief.

by mullen 9y ago

Consultant32452 9y ago

>Health Care is not market since there is hardly any market opaqueness. You simply don't know how much anything costs in health care, its all a big mystery until you get your bill. Health providers are out to make sure you never know how much something costs until it is time to pay for it. Define "how much something costs?" I can pull up the spec sheet from my insurance company and tell you the in network price and out of network price for just about anything. The crappy system we have now sets the price between you and the insurance company. It's not that the providers don't want you to know how much something costs, they don't know how much it costs. Conversely, I can go into the local urgent care here, a place that caters to many uninsured. The prices for their services are literally posted on the wall, not unlike the menu at a fast food restaurant. You know exactly how much an x-ray costs, or a cold/flu visit, or a cast, etc. When people are paying for these services with their own money and the prices aren't the result of some individualized, convoluted pay schedule with your insurance provider, then the prices suddenly become extremely transparent. >and completely ignores what insurance is in the first place. Insurance is there to help you out in the event of a disaster, not to pay your ongoing day to day costs. So let's make sure we're really talking about insurance. >If you gave them cash and said this is your medicare, they would take it and spend it on everything but medical care. In the end, they would get sick and die or be crippled or worse, That is historically incorrect. Yes, people may choose to spend less on healthcare than you would like them to, but why do you feel the need to be so authoritarian about your opinion on what's best for them? >then leave everyone else with the bill. Only if people like you force it on us. >We know prices would never drop to the floor because that is the system we have in place now and prices keep going up. As was pointed out by another poster the prices for elective surgeries like LASIK which are not covered by health insurance are going down over time. It's funny to me that you have no problem accepting that some people would take their Medicare money and blow it on something else, but you think that healthcare providers would not do anything to try to convince those people to spend their dollars with them.

tomkarlo 9y ago
>Define "how much something costs?" I can pull up the spec sheet from my insurance company and tell you the in network price and out of network price for just about anything. Except if you go in for a major procedure, you don't know what you'll end up needing off that price list, and often, neither does your doctor. So even if providers were perfectly transparent about what a procedure would cost (and it's well-established they're not - just try calling and asking for prices) the nature of the service being purchased is that you sometimes don't know exactly what you're buying until it's too late to change providers. A few years back I broke my leg and went to the hospital. Halfway through the process I was offered a couple of Vicodin, which I would later be billed $1,000 for. Was I supposed to haggle about them with that, or take my xray and hobble out down the street to someone who would sell me vicodin cheaper?
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  >Except if you go in for a major procedure, you don't know what you'll end up needing off that price list, and often, neither does your doctor. One of two things is going to happen here. One is I have a flat rate for a hospital visit, so the cost is known no matter what I need. Second, if I'm hitting my out of pocket max then that cost is also known. >A few years back I broke my leg and went to the hospital. Halfway through the process I was offered a couple of Vicodin, which I would later be billed $1,000 for. Was I supposed to haggle about them with that, or take my xray and hobble out down the street to someone who would sell me vicodin cheaper? The only reason they could get away with even pretending like they would charge you $1k for a vicodin is because of the distorted system we have where everyone pretends the money comes out of the insurance company's money instead of your own.
  - tomkarlo 9y ago
    Let's say I was paying out of pocket. (Given my HDHP, I effectively was.) Would that somehow magically change my ability to negotiate the price of those pills? No. It's not a "distortion". It's the inherent problem of trying to turn healthcare into a market. The dynamics of service delivery make it impossible for consumes to negotiate or compare prices in the manner necessary to have a functioning market. I'd also note, that since I've never gone to any other healthcare institution with a broken leg, I have *no way to compare my experience to other providers. This is yet another way in that healthcare does not lend itself to market solutions.

humanrebar 9y ago

> Health Care is not market since there is hardly any market opaqueness. "Market" means "crowd sourced pricing". The alternative is a person or a small group of people setting prices, controlling access, setting standards, etc. Once you think that's a better idea, you are responsible for further clarifying how those people will be held accountable for their decisions. I don't see a non-market proposal that is honest about the concentration of power and actually tackles the problem of accountability. I don't want a national medical code mess growing alongside our tax code. I don't want new and exciting fields of healthcare law and lobbying opening up. I don't want (pick: Donald Trump or Barak Obama) being the national Hospital-Administrator-in-Chief.