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Which in turn reminds me of Richard Feynman describing the Mayan Calendar in his famous lectures on quantum mechanics, as an example of how the Mayans understoo
by vanderZwan 9y ago
Which in turn reminds me of Richard Feynman describing the Mayan Calendar in his famous lectures on quantum mechanics, as an example of how the Mayans understood how the planets moved by looking, that they even figured out a number of patterns and predictions, but that they still did not know why the planets moved as they did, his point being that current understanding of quantum mechanics is very similar to this[0].
At the end, he tangentially mentions that we only know about this calendar because it is described in one of the three surviving books of their culture, out of thousands[1]
> "Just imagine our civilization reduced to three books, just the particular ones left by accident, which ones... So eh.. anyway, I get off the subject..."
The genocide of Native Americans is of course horrible by itself, but somehow this remark made me realize what "genocide" means beyond people being killed en masse. So much culture and knowledge was lost.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdZMXWmlp9g&t=25m28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdZMXWmlp9g&t=25m28s
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdZMXWmlp9g&t=32m26s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdZMXWmlp9g&t=32m26s
- erikpukinskis 9y agoThis is why liberals are sometimes using the term genocide more broadly in a way conservatives don’t like. They reference things like “black genocide” and conservatives get mad because the actual slayings are too few to be considered “genocide”. Yet in terms of lost culture, putting a high enough percentage of individuals in prison, and confining enough of the others to ghettos, while driving them out of historical cultural centers, has an equivalent result to genocide in some ways. Essentially, a percentage of the people can be alive while also having “the culture” be as dead as dead can be. Of course the culture is born again in a different form, as Native American culture endures today, despite “genocide”. And rendering that invisible is just a continuation of that genocide so I certainly don’t want to intimate that such culture is truly gone.
- vanderZwan 9y ago> Of course the culture is born again in a different form, as Native American culture endures today Well, a culture is born again; culture just tends to happen if you put people together, it's in our blood. The question is whether it flourishes. I am from Europe so cannot say this for certain, but I get the impression that all over both American continents, Native Americans are still very much an ethnic minority whose rights are being trampled over.
- Banthum 9y agoIt should be noted - this definition as genocide as destruction of a culture (instead of physical murder of a people) also supports the idea of "white genocide": A targeted effort by people with power to liquidate white peoples' group identity ("abolish whiteness") and to marginalize and obscure their traditional cultural touchstones ("don't teach books by dead white men" and related efforts to avoid teaching Shakespeare, the Bible, old white philosophers, etc), efforts to bring in many immigrants to make whites minorities in areas where they were previously a majority (and gleeful anticipation of this outcome), etc. This definition does seem to mean something. E.g. I'd say Uighurs and Tibetans are undergoing genocide by China, even though China isn't running death camps. China has the intent of erasing these groups as groups and is systematically working towards that goal. And it has been used this way extensively. People talk about "genocide" of trans people in America. Or the "genocide" of Native Americans, who, although they were almost wiped out by disease, and were then abused in horrid ways, were never the target of a campaign of physical total murder. Reservations are terrible, but they're not Treblinka. On the other hand, the definition seems incoherent. Is it possible for blacks and whites to both be undergoing genocide right now? I suppose so; maybe it's a war with each tribe trying to dissolve the other. I suppose you could look at intent as the difference as well: Are people trying to abolish blacks as a group? Is this the goal, or a side-effect? Are people trying to abolish whites as a group? Does it require a chance of success? Is the intent to liquidate white culture enough to call it genocidal, or does it actually need to be actualized with a strong chance of success? How much chance? Or does it only require an effect? Is the effect of liquidating black culture enough to call it genocidal, even if it's just an incidental side-effect, or does it need to be an intent? When we bring modern music and food to an isolated tribe, thus displacing their traditional music and cuisine, is that genocide? Because we just destroyed their culture forever. Things get fuzzier because the academics in power at the moment - all leftists - want to be able to use this word to describe actions against people they like, but not against those they dislike. Hence the bobbing and weaving between definitions: When it's against whites, genocide means gas chambers only. When it's against blacks, it means a lot of young criminals spending time in prison. I think it would be better to narrow the usage of this word. If people are trying to liquidate another culture, let's figure out another word for that (and please not "cultural genocide").
- 9y ago
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- jacobolus 9y agoAnd the reason that there are only a few surviving books is that the Spanish conquerors plucked those out to send back to Europe as curios before they burned down all the libraries.
- mixmastamyk 9y agoAnything survives in a museum?
- DrScump 9y agoAs for Mayan codices, only three (The Dresden Codex, The Madrid Codex, and The Paris Codex) are known to survive.
- DrScump 9y agoMost of the books themselves were destroyed as the work of heretics, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices
- ajmurmann 9y agoThis stuff drives me so nuts. It also seems to be something that I've only ever noticed being done by religious people who follow done monotheistic believe. Does anyone know if any destruction of a culture and its artifacts had happened by someone not motivated by monotheistic delusions?
- DrScump 9y agoIt was common in the ancient world -- "we won because our god(s) are greater than your god(s)." Look at the (pagan/polytheist) Romans' actions in the seige and destruction of (monotheist) Jerusalem, for one example. Or (pagan) Viking raids on English/Welsh/Irish Christian monasteries for another.
- jacobolus 9y agoDo you consider the Chinese cultural revolution to be the product of monotheistic delusion? What about the more recent Chinese occupation of Tibet? What about the Nazi party? The Japanese occupiers of Korea and China during WWII? The British burning the Burmese royal library in the late 19th century? Or the current massacres of Muslims in Myanmar by Buddhists? The US Army in its genocide of indigenous North American tribes? My impression is that there are at least some anti-intellectual authoritarians in every country, religion, and political movement.
- arca_vorago 9y agoOnce again someone many have accused of tinfoil battery being shown to be onto some nugget of truth. He had a medical scare recently, anyone know how he's doing?
- vanderZwan 9y agoI have trouble seeing the connection between your reply and my comment - did you intend to post it elsewhere and did it accidentally end up with mine? EDIT: My best guess is that this was intended as a reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16292738 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16292738 an referring to Charles C Mann and his book?
- arca_vorago 9y agoSorry for some reason I misread Feynman as something else...
- vanderZwan 9y agoThere have been quite a few crackpots saying ludicrous things about the Mayan calendar, so that sounds like understandable mistake to me.