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Welcome to the USA. Uninsured appendectomy in California – now I owe $45k. #freedom

clumsysmurf 9y ago
Thats it? ;) Antivenin for rattlesnake bite costs over $153,000. Watch your step and don't tread on it. http://www.wideopencountry.com/actual-cost-rattlesnake-bite-u-s/ http://www.wideopencountry.com/actual-cost-rattlesnake-bite-...
- tptacek 9y ago
  To a first approximation nobody gets bit by rattlesnakes, while one in twenty Americans will eventually need an appendectomy.
  - sdfasdasf 9y ago
    Lots of people get bit! 7000 to 8000 a year [1], more than handgun deaths. Death from the bites is rare thanks to, among other things, antivenom! [1] https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/snakes/ https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/snakes/
    - tptacek 9y ago
      That's 2-3 orders of magnitude fewer than appendectomies, and an order of magnitude fewer than handgun injuries. 7000 rattlesnake bites is 0.002% of the population.
      - sdfasdasf 9y ago
        Sure and appendectomies are very expensive. But why do you dismiss the OPs concern for the outrageous cost of anti-venom? Perhaps because the cost of something as rare, expensive to produce and perishable as anti-venom is sort of justified, whereas a relatively routine operation like and appendectomy is not? Ok, that's fine. But it still stands that snake bites cost 150K and that's a lot of money!
    - grzm 9y ago
      From the link provided, only 5 people die. > "It has been estimated that 7,000–8,000 people per year receive venomous bites in the United States, and about 5 of those people die." For a more accurate comparison, you would compare this with the number of injuries and deaths from firearms. > "In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens), and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens)." Preferably these would be broken down to separate handgun injuries to be a closer comparison to the stat you provided, but the point stands to illustrate that the comparison you provided muddies more than enlightens. To bring up statistics like this just muddies the issue, particularly with a hot-button topic like firearm violence. There's a lot more goes into a nuanced discussion than throwing out stats like this.
      - saulrh 9y ago
        > From the link provided, only 5 people die. How many would have died if they weren't treated? Like, to a first approximation, nobody dies of measles any more, but you're not going to see me saying that that means that we don't need to vaccinate against it.
        grzm 9y ago
        It's a legitimate question, but again, it's only useful if you're going to make the same comparison with handguns: how many more people would have died without medical attention? Are we comparing the lethality of the injury? The incidence of occurrence? The effectiveness of medical care? These are meaningful and important questions. The numbers alone, without a meaningful comparison with what they mean in their relative context only clouds the picture.
        saulrh 9y ago
        That's fair. It's certainly the case that none of the numbers people have been providing are useful because you can't disentangle causes well enough to use them to support any particular position.
      - sdfasdasf 9y ago
- atomical 9y ago
  > While trying to take a selfie with some rattlers, Fassler got bit.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    If they had only put "cost of anti-venom 150kU$S" this wouldn't have happened. I say its only a problem of price transparency!
  - paulcole 9y ago
    The number of truly innocent people bitten by venomous snakes in the United States is essentially 0. 99% of them were doing something incredibly stupid and got what was coming to them. Edit: Why are people downvoting this? Anyone who grew up in an area with snakes should know this is 100% fact. The truth is that there's essentially 0 venomous snake bite danger in the United States whether you're being an idiot or not. You can reduce that even further by simply not being an idiot.
    - conanbatt 9y ago
      Because you are blaming the victim. The cost of rattlesnake antivenom is not 150k. So being able to charge that means something is broken in the chain of supply.
      - paulcole 9y ago
        If you're drunk driving and god-willing kill only yourself, who would argue that it's not OK to say, "Bad decision for drunk driving." Just because someone was injured or killed does not mean they are a victim.
        kimdcmason 9y ago
        Being bitten by a snake is in no way comparable to drunk driving.
        9y ago
- benbreen 9y ago
  When I lived in Austin, a raccoon snuck into my house via the cat door along with two of her kits one night. After giving my cat the fright of his life, she jumped on me from her perch hanging from a corner of my ceiling (!) and scratched me. Insurance company initially didn't want to cover my 10 minute hospital visit and rabbies shots and sent me a bill for around 35k. Then, magically, they decided they would cover it. I was a grad student at that time making 18k per year - in retrospect, that bill could have truly messed up my life, and it all hinged on the whims of some anonymous insurance company employee. And that raccoon's poor decision-making, I guess.
kaoD 9y ago
How does a nation support this kind of tax? And yes, I mean tax because it's essentially an unavoidable redistribution of wealth (where not paying means death penalty) from the poor and sick to the rich. The worst kind of tax. I don't see how that is worse than getting "robbed" of your well earned money to pay for far cheaper universal healthcare. What's the chance you're going to get one (or several) expensive surgeries done on you in your lifetime? (Where expensive is something as simple as an appendectomy.) Close to 100%? Now add regular medical expenses. As a total outsider to US economic status: what's the median wage in the US and how expensive is private healthcare compared to it? Also: can you get kicked out of medical insurance if you're deemed too costly for their business? Yes, I understand the US is probably the best place in the world to get the best medical care... if you can afford it.
- jayd16 9y ago
  >As a total outsider to US economic status: what's the median wage in the US and how expensive is private healthcare compared to it? Also: can you get kicked out of medical insurance if you're deemed too costly for their business? Obamacare removed the ability to get denied over pre-existing conditions. It was a very real problem not too long ago.
- Florin_Andrei 9y ago
  A tax would go to the state, and then it would be used to build roads and schools. This is theft. It goes into the pockets of the parasites who are benefitting from this convoluted system.
codelitt 9y ago
You should negotiate with the hospital. You can normally get it down to 10% of the original amount and put on a payment plan. Their first bill is never what they think they'll receive. Its just their opening offer. There are even services that will help you negotiate it down. (Half the reason for insurance isn't even their coverage - it's the negotiated rates.) Hope this helps you.
md2be 9y ago
You Havnt said what your income is ? But Talk to the hospital and make an offer. BTW, tech is far from immune at charging high process. I paid for 30K for a buggy website.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  Hospitals aren't generally willing to work with people too much. My uncle had emergency heart surgery. Bill over half a million. They "reduced" it in half. He installed flooring, only making 30K a year... and his doctor told him if he did his work, he could die. Hospital said there was nothing else they could do if he couldn't meet what they said were minimum monthly payments (I think they wanted it paid in less than a year). He filed bankruptcy because of it. This is a common story where I was (Indiana). Edit due to forgotten information.
ithinkso 9y ago
I've been thinking about getting a job in US (San Diego, from Europe), my field, perfect match and all, pay is much better if you compare absolute value in USD but after reading about all that stuff about US it seems like after paying taxes, rent and for everything else I'll end up with jack shit with the risk of bankruptcy if I broke my leg or sth (being sued for some bs etc). Scary stuff. But at the same time, my friend is living there (Chicago, I think, northwest for sure) and is doing fine with less than 50k gross a year. I don't know what to believe when I'm reading about US. Internet makes it look like a crazy place to live but is it classical "you only remember failures"/ "if you aren't poor it's fine" or something? What would you (US citizens) advise?
- MrLeap 9y ago
  If you get a job that offers insurance, you'll be fine. Unless you lose the job and don't have the money saved to pay for COBRA or a marketplace plan... So have emergency savings.
- pchristensen 9y ago
  The US is very large and diverse, but here are some general rules of thumb: 1) The US Gov doesn't protect much against extreme cases - that's why health insurance (generally through an employer) is important. 2) America is a very, very hard place to be poor. 3) Living like you see on TV (in NYC, LA, SF, etc, or in a cool downtown loft in an urban neighborhood) is insanely expensive and it's only possible if you design your career and life around it. 4) By trading commute time, "coolness"/novelty of neighborhood, and/or school district, and metro area, you can live well on a very reasonable middle class income. Living in Chicago, Charlotte, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, any big city in Texas or Ohio, avoids the super high cost of coastal cities. IANAL, but as far as getting into the US, if you can have an employer sponsor you, I believe it's much easier than applying on your own. This ... may not be the easiest time to get into the USA.
  - ithinkso 9y ago
    Thank you all for your responses, that's definitely reassuring though there seems to be a common theme to avoiding poverty cause it's hard to get back on your feet. Well, that's probably true everywhere so... By the way, when I was talking about going bankrupt I meant despite having health insurance but often you see cases where the insurance only covers accidents that happened 'while on a red or green bus going no more that 30mph at night, full moon required'. Reductio ad absurdum obviously but I think you know what I mean (probably yet another stereotype I have about US).
wombatpm 9y ago
I hear you. My mother-in-law is on dialysis. The starting price before Medicare and her supplemental insurance is $80k/month! When I had crappy insurance with a $9k deductible, my son's insulin was $570 for a 1 months supply of just 1 of the insulins he takes.
- walshemj 9y ago
  FMH was that PD or HD? To give an example from the UK I was on dislaysis for about a year before I had a transplant did not pay anything.
uberduber 9y ago
Hire a medical bill auditing service, usually the initial consult is free. I don't know which hospital but they will certainly tell you if it's one that is unreasonable and refuses to negotiate.

Thats it? ;) Antivenin for rattlesnake bite costs over $153,000. Watch your step and don't tread on it. http://www.wideopencountry.com/actual-cost-rattlesnake-bite-u-s/ http://www.wideopencountry.com/actual-cost-rattlesnake-bite-...

tptacek 9y ago
To a first approximation nobody gets bit by rattlesnakes, while one in twenty Americans will eventually need an appendectomy.
- sdfasdasf 9y ago
  Lots of people get bit! 7000 to 8000 a year [1], more than handgun deaths. Death from the bites is rare thanks to, among other things, antivenom! [1] https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/snakes/ https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/snakes/
  - tptacek 9y ago
    That's 2-3 orders of magnitude fewer than appendectomies, and an order of magnitude fewer than handgun injuries. 7000 rattlesnake bites is 0.002% of the population.
    - sdfasdasf 9y ago
      Sure and appendectomies are very expensive. But why do you dismiss the OPs concern for the outrageous cost of anti-venom? Perhaps because the cost of something as rare, expensive to produce and perishable as anti-venom is sort of justified, whereas a relatively routine operation like and appendectomy is not? Ok, that's fine. But it still stands that snake bites cost 150K and that's a lot of money!
  - grzm 9y ago
    From the link provided, only 5 people die. > "It has been estimated that 7,000–8,000 people per year receive venomous bites in the United States, and about 5 of those people die." For a more accurate comparison, you would compare this with the number of injuries and deaths from firearms. > "In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens), and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens)." Preferably these would be broken down to separate handgun injuries to be a closer comparison to the stat you provided, but the point stands to illustrate that the comparison you provided muddies more than enlightens. To bring up statistics like this just muddies the issue, particularly with a hot-button topic like firearm violence. There's a lot more goes into a nuanced discussion than throwing out stats like this.
    - saulrh 9y ago
      > From the link provided, only 5 people die. How many would have died if they weren't treated? Like, to a first approximation, nobody dies of measles any more, but you're not going to see me saying that that means that we don't need to vaccinate against it.
      - grzm 9y ago
        It's a legitimate question, but again, it's only useful if you're going to make the same comparison with handguns: how many more people would have died without medical attention? Are we comparing the lethality of the injury? The incidence of occurrence? The effectiveness of medical care? These are meaningful and important questions. The numbers alone, without a meaningful comparison with what they mean in their relative context only clouds the picture.
        saulrh 9y ago
        That's fair. It's certainly the case that none of the numbers people have been providing are useful because you can't disentangle causes well enough to use them to support any particular position.
    - sdfasdasf 9y ago
atomical 9y ago
> While trying to take a selfie with some rattlers, Fassler got bit.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  If they had only put "cost of anti-venom 150kU$S" this wouldn't have happened. I say its only a problem of price transparency!
- paulcole 9y ago
  The number of truly innocent people bitten by venomous snakes in the United States is essentially 0. 99% of them were doing something incredibly stupid and got what was coming to them. Edit: Why are people downvoting this? Anyone who grew up in an area with snakes should know this is 100% fact. The truth is that there's essentially 0 venomous snake bite danger in the United States whether you're being an idiot or not. You can reduce that even further by simply not being an idiot.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    Because you are blaming the victim. The cost of rattlesnake antivenom is not 150k. So being able to charge that means something is broken in the chain of supply.
    - paulcole 9y ago
      If you're drunk driving and god-willing kill only yourself, who would argue that it's not OK to say, "Bad decision for drunk driving." Just because someone was injured or killed does not mean they are a victim.
      - kimdcmason 9y ago
        Being bitten by a snake is in no way comparable to drunk driving.
        9y ago
benbreen 9y ago
When I lived in Austin, a raccoon snuck into my house via the cat door along with two of her kits one night. After giving my cat the fright of his life, she jumped on me from her perch hanging from a corner of my ceiling (!) and scratched me. Insurance company initially didn't want to cover my 10 minute hospital visit and rabbies shots and sent me a bill for around 35k. Then, magically, they decided they would cover it. I was a grad student at that time making 18k per year - in retrospect, that bill could have truly messed up my life, and it all hinged on the whims of some anonymous insurance company employee. And that raccoon's poor decision-making, I guess.

kaoD 9y ago

How does a nation support this kind of tax? And yes, I mean tax because it's essentially an unavoidable redistribution of wealth (where not paying means death penalty) from the poor and sick to the rich. The worst kind of tax. I don't see how that is worse than getting "robbed" of your well earned money to pay for far cheaper universal healthcare. What's the chance you're going to get one (or several) expensive surgeries done on you in your lifetime? (Where expensive is something as simple as an appendectomy.) Close to 100%? Now add regular medical expenses. As a total outsider to US economic status: what's the median wage in the US and how expensive is private healthcare compared to it? Also: can you get kicked out of medical insurance if you're deemed too costly for their business? Yes, I understand the US is probably the best place in the world to get the best medical care... if you can afford it.

jayd16 9y ago
>As a total outsider to US economic status: what's the median wage in the US and how expensive is private healthcare compared to it? Also: can you get kicked out of medical insurance if you're deemed too costly for their business? Obamacare removed the ability to get denied over pre-existing conditions. It was a very real problem not too long ago.
Florin_Andrei 9y ago
A tax would go to the state, and then it would be used to build roads and schools. This is theft. It goes into the pockets of the parasites who are benefitting from this convoluted system.

codelitt 9y ago

You should negotiate with the hospital. You can normally get it down to 10% of the original amount and put on a payment plan. Their first bill is never what they think they'll receive. Its just their opening offer. There are even services that will help you negotiate it down. (Half the reason for insurance isn't even their coverage - it's the negotiated rates.) Hope this helps you.

md2be 9y ago

You Havnt said what your income is ? But Talk to the hospital and make an offer. BTW, tech is far from immune at charging high process. I paid for 30K for a buggy website.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago
Hospitals aren't generally willing to work with people too much. My uncle had emergency heart surgery. Bill over half a million. They "reduced" it in half. He installed flooring, only making 30K a year... and his doctor told him if he did his work, he could die. Hospital said there was nothing else they could do if he couldn't meet what they said were minimum monthly payments (I think they wanted it paid in less than a year). He filed bankruptcy because of it. This is a common story where I was (Indiana). Edit due to forgotten information.

ithinkso 9y ago

I've been thinking about getting a job in US (San Diego, from Europe), my field, perfect match and all, pay is much better if you compare absolute value in USD but after reading about all that stuff about US it seems like after paying taxes, rent and for everything else I'll end up with jack shit with the risk of bankruptcy if I broke my leg or sth (being sued for some bs etc). Scary stuff. But at the same time, my friend is living there (Chicago, I think, northwest for sure) and is doing fine with less than 50k gross a year. I don't know what to believe when I'm reading about US. Internet makes it look like a crazy place to live but is it classical "you only remember failures"/ "if you aren't poor it's fine" or something? What would you (US citizens) advise?

MrLeap 9y ago
If you get a job that offers insurance, you'll be fine. Unless you lose the job and don't have the money saved to pay for COBRA or a marketplace plan... So have emergency savings.
pchristensen 9y ago
The US is very large and diverse, but here are some general rules of thumb: 1) The US Gov doesn't protect much against extreme cases - that's why health insurance (generally through an employer) is important. 2) America is a very, very hard place to be poor. 3) Living like you see on TV (in NYC, LA, SF, etc, or in a cool downtown loft in an urban neighborhood) is insanely expensive and it's only possible if you design your career and life around it. 4) By trading commute time, "coolness"/novelty of neighborhood, and/or school district, and metro area, you can live well on a very reasonable middle class income. Living in Chicago, Charlotte, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, any big city in Texas or Ohio, avoids the super high cost of coastal cities. IANAL, but as far as getting into the US, if you can have an employer sponsor you, I believe it's much easier than applying on your own. This ... may not be the easiest time to get into the USA.
- ithinkso 9y ago
  Thank you all for your responses, that's definitely reassuring though there seems to be a common theme to avoiding poverty cause it's hard to get back on your feet. Well, that's probably true everywhere so... By the way, when I was talking about going bankrupt I meant despite having health insurance but often you see cases where the insurance only covers accidents that happened 'while on a red or green bus going no more that 30mph at night, full moon required'. Reductio ad absurdum obviously but I think you know what I mean (probably yet another stereotype I have about US).

wombatpm 9y ago

I hear you. My mother-in-law is on dialysis. The starting price before Medicare and her supplemental insurance is $80k/month! When I had crappy insurance with a $9k deductible, my son's insulin was $570 for a 1 months supply of just 1 of the insulins he takes.

walshemj 9y ago
FMH was that PD or HD? To give an example from the UK I was on dislaysis for about a year before I had a transplant did not pay anything.

uberduber 9y ago

Hire a medical bill auditing service, usually the initial consult is free. I don't know which hospital but they will certainly tell you if it's one that is unreasonable and refuses to negotiate.