5 ms·

> Nothing. I take issue with this. There are several problems with Windows 10: - silent updates, that you cannot control them or disable them, - these update

> Nothing. I take issue with this. There are several problems with Windows 10: - silent updates, that you cannot control them or disable them, - these updates reset your setting, enable things you explicitly disabled, behind your back, - Microsoft still didn't document what data they are exfiltrating, and doesn't allow to disable call-to-home functionality. BTW, that free upgrade still works, it just isn't advertised. For above mentioned reasons, many consider Windows 10 to be the inferior version, not the previous ones.

cube2222 9y ago
Silent updates: Don't really know what you mean. Can't control: You can postpone them for quite a while. I'm sure it's at least 30 days, but you can do for much longer I think. Can't disable: Yea, what a pity, people won't be getting hacked by malware that got preventive updates shipped a year ago. Reset settings: there was something like that, that's true, but the last time it happened, it was like a year ago, and I do think this is a case of "don't attribute malice to something that can by caused by a mistake". Didn't still document: Half a month ago they put the windows diagnostic data viewer into windows, you can look up all telemetry that's getting sent back home.
- vetinari 9y ago
  Silent updates: it is up to these people, whether they want to risk getting hacked, not up to Microsoft. Reset settings: still happens. The worse thing is, that firewall rules for application packages have version numbers in them, so when you change the rule, and the package updates... you rule is ineffective. And no, Bing doesn't to know, what I'm searching local start menu for. Didn't still document: so you know what "cV" or "iKey" values mean? Still, where's the "off" option? Mozilla doesn't get the telemetry from me, and there is an universe of difference, how trustworthy Mozilla is compared to Microsoft.
  - cube2222 9y ago
    Same as it's up to people if they wanna use vaccine or not? The thing is: 1. Those people then are saying how bad and full of viruses Windows it's, even if it's only their fault. It's good for technically not-inclined users. And MS is only loosing here, as well as those users. 2. This is how you get botnets, which then take your worldwide DNS down. But yeah, it's only up to these people. Why would I care about botnets DDoS'ing half the net? And why would I care that companies are handling my sensitive personal data on insecure computers? Yeah, no worries. It should only be up to them...
    - Silhouette 9y ago
      Those people then are saying how bad and full of viruses Windows it's, even if it's only their fault. It's good for technically not-inclined users. That's a good argument for making security updates on-by-default. It's not a good argument for making all updates on-whether-you-like-it-or-not. This is how you get botnets, which then take your worldwide DNS down. The solution to botnets is to cut offending devices off the Internet at the ISP level. You can't trust local security measures in this context anyway. And why would I care that companies are handling my sensitive personal data on insecure computers? You're complaining about the security of sensitive personal data, in a discussion about an OS that can literally deploy arbitrary updates and upload arbitrary information to a third party for use in unknown ways? Your concerns about your privacy are fair, but I think you're on the wrong side of the debate here.
dragontamer 9y ago
> - silent updates, that you cannot control them or disable them, Have you heard of Group Policy and WSUS? I guess its Enterprise versions only, but anyone who cares deeply about their IT Infrastructure should be running Windows Server and all those services. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/waas-wufb-group-policy https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/w...
- vetinari 9y ago
  So if you are SOHO, you don't have a right to control your devices?
  - paulmd 9y ago
    Disconnect it from the internet and you won't have a problem. If you're going to be on the public internet, you have a duty to make sure you're patched up, just like you don't have the right to go out in public and spread infectious diseases around. That's not a popular opinion among the subset of users who refuse to apply patches, but it's the correct one from the perspective of security and public policy. There are plenty of ways around it: maintain your own patching infrastructure and you can do whatever you want. Use Linux and you can do whatever you want. But it's an absolutely correct decision to push patches onto the unwashed masses even if it upsets them. We would be better off as a society if vaccinations were mandatory too, but we also have some vocal idiots there too.
    - Silhouette 9y ago
      If you're going to be on the public internet, you have a duty to make sure you're patched up And does that include all the non-security patches that change things around in ways maybe I don't want? Or immediately installing security patches even if they're broken and compromise normal functioning of the system? I don't see even a moral/ethical argument for mandating those kinds of updates.
      - paulmd 9y ago
ReverseCold 9y ago
For no silent updates, pay for W10 Pro. It's not free, yes, but neither was any other Windows.
- vetinari 9y ago
  Pro has also silent updates. You can just postpone them... for a while.
- cm2187 9y ago
  I think you mean Windows 10 enterprise, not windows 10 pro. Windows 10 pro comes with the same limitations in term of control than windows 10 home. Just with a few features unlocked (like being able to RDP into the machine).
  - ReverseCold 9y ago
    Enterprise LTSB is even better - but I don't think there's a way to obtain it as a home user
Someone1234 9y ago
> these updates reset your setting, enable things you explicitly disabled, behind your back, And by settings you mean undocumented registry entries that people found and altered to break core services on purpose? If you start altering undocumented things there's no real assurances that it will work the same way (or state maintained) during an update. > Microsoft still didn't document what data they are exfiltrating Basic diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic... Full diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windows-diagnostic-data-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windo... > silent updates, that you cannot control them or disable them You get plenty of control over updates including how "silent" they are, you just cannot disable them entirely. But is limiting the ability to disable them for the greater good? We still have huge Windows XP botnets running rampant on the internet because people would completely disable updates, get infected, and then start causing harm to their neighbors. I've read quite a few people that want to disable Windows Update, but they never provide a plan or route for receiving security updates. They just simply opt to run an insecure machine because an update annoyed them one time, and that would be fine if it didn't impact others.
- Shikadi 9y ago
  I have experienced the first point many many times, and no, they aren't registry hacks. I've had things get reset straight out of Windows power options among others for example.
  - mattgreenrocks 9y ago
    Early on, I think I've seen W10 update my GPU drivers while I was in game, which crashed it. I've also seen my TV mirroring setup wiped out by driver updates that happened behind my back. Windows 10 doesn't seem to respect the user as much as previous releases.
  - WorldMaker 9y ago
    Microsoft had some early hiccups in settings being forgetful when reprovisioning them in updates, and apologized for those on the Windows 10 blogs (and especially to Insiders who saw it the most; and also helped report it and fix it). Windows 10 has gotten more reliable to not accidentally forget settings with each major update.
Santosh83 9y ago
> BTW, that free upgrade still works, it just isn't advertised. For above mentioned reasons, many consider Windows 10 to be the inferior version, not the previous ones. This is interesting! Can you expand? Where or how can one still upgrade to 10 now? AFAIK even the free upgrade extension for those using assistive technologies has been withdrawn.
- Torgo 9y ago
  I have been able to do it by acquiring a Windows 10 install CD, booting from it, and doing an upgrade.
mattgreenrocks 9y ago
I really dislike that MS is willing to impair the experience of more experienced users because other users can't be bothered to update. IMO, the MS of old would've let you opt out via a registry hack that you enable once and forget about, rather than constantly screwing with your computer to fix things.
- WorldMaker 9y ago
  The problem used to be that old registry hack would go viral in an old person email chain or some terrible adware/malware app would suggest it as a way to "speed up your machine" or worse some virus would do it unsuspectingly as a way to cover its tracks and a lot of inexperienced users would suddenly stop updating their machines regularly.

cube2222 9y ago

Silent updates: Don't really know what you mean. Can't control: You can postpone them for quite a while. I'm sure it's at least 30 days, but you can do for much longer I think. Can't disable: Yea, what a pity, people won't be getting hacked by malware that got preventive updates shipped a year ago. Reset settings: there was something like that, that's true, but the last time it happened, it was like a year ago, and I do think this is a case of "don't attribute malice to something that can by caused by a mistake". Didn't still document: Half a month ago they put the windows diagnostic data viewer into windows, you can look up all telemetry that's getting sent back home.

vetinari 9y ago
Silent updates: it is up to these people, whether they want to risk getting hacked, not up to Microsoft. Reset settings: still happens. The worse thing is, that firewall rules for application packages have version numbers in them, so when you change the rule, and the package updates... you rule is ineffective. And no, Bing doesn't to know, what I'm searching local start menu for. Didn't still document: so you know what "cV" or "iKey" values mean? Still, where's the "off" option? Mozilla doesn't get the telemetry from me, and there is an universe of difference, how trustworthy Mozilla is compared to Microsoft.
- cube2222 9y ago
  Same as it's up to people if they wanna use vaccine or not? The thing is: 1. Those people then are saying how bad and full of viruses Windows it's, even if it's only their fault. It's good for technically not-inclined users. And MS is only loosing here, as well as those users. 2. This is how you get botnets, which then take your worldwide DNS down. But yeah, it's only up to these people. Why would I care about botnets DDoS'ing half the net? And why would I care that companies are handling my sensitive personal data on insecure computers? Yeah, no worries. It should only be up to them...
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    Those people then are saying how bad and full of viruses Windows it's, even if it's only their fault. It's good for technically not-inclined users. That's a good argument for making security updates on-by-default. It's not a good argument for making all updates on-whether-you-like-it-or-not. This is how you get botnets, which then take your worldwide DNS down. The solution to botnets is to cut offending devices off the Internet at the ISP level. You can't trust local security measures in this context anyway. And why would I care that companies are handling my sensitive personal data on insecure computers? You're complaining about the security of sensitive personal data, in a discussion about an OS that can literally deploy arbitrary updates and upload arbitrary information to a third party for use in unknown ways? Your concerns about your privacy are fair, but I think you're on the wrong side of the debate here.

dragontamer 9y ago

> - silent updates, that you cannot control them or disable them, Have you heard of Group Policy and WSUS? I guess its Enterprise versions only, but anyone who cares deeply about their IT Infrastructure should be running Windows Server and all those services. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/waas-wufb-group-policy https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/update/w...

vetinari 9y ago
So if you are SOHO, you don't have a right to control your devices?
- paulmd 9y ago
  Disconnect it from the internet and you won't have a problem. If you're going to be on the public internet, you have a duty to make sure you're patched up, just like you don't have the right to go out in public and spread infectious diseases around. That's not a popular opinion among the subset of users who refuse to apply patches, but it's the correct one from the perspective of security and public policy. There are plenty of ways around it: maintain your own patching infrastructure and you can do whatever you want. Use Linux and you can do whatever you want. But it's an absolutely correct decision to push patches onto the unwashed masses even if it upsets them. We would be better off as a society if vaccinations were mandatory too, but we also have some vocal idiots there too.
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    If you're going to be on the public internet, you have a duty to make sure you're patched up And does that include all the non-security patches that change things around in ways maybe I don't want? Or immediately installing security patches even if they're broken and compromise normal functioning of the system? I don't see even a moral/ethical argument for mandating those kinds of updates.
    - paulmd 9y ago

ReverseCold 9y ago

For no silent updates, pay for W10 Pro. It's not free, yes, but neither was any other Windows.

vetinari 9y ago
Pro has also silent updates. You can just postpone them... for a while.
cm2187 9y ago
I think you mean Windows 10 enterprise, not windows 10 pro. Windows 10 pro comes with the same limitations in term of control than windows 10 home. Just with a few features unlocked (like being able to RDP into the machine).
- ReverseCold 9y ago
  Enterprise LTSB is even better - but I don't think there's a way to obtain it as a home user

Someone1234 9y ago

> these updates reset your setting, enable things you explicitly disabled, behind your back, And by settings you mean undocumented registry entries that people found and altered to break core services on purpose? If you start altering undocumented things there's no real assurances that it will work the same way (or state maintained) during an update. > Microsoft still didn't document what data they are exfiltrating Basic diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic... Full diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windows-diagnostic-data-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windo... > silent updates, that you cannot control them or disable them You get plenty of control over updates including how "silent" they are, you just cannot disable them entirely. But is limiting the ability to disable them for the greater good? We still have huge Windows XP botnets running rampant on the internet because people would completely disable updates, get infected, and then start causing harm to their neighbors. I've read quite a few people that want to disable Windows Update, but they never provide a plan or route for receiving security updates. They just simply opt to run an insecure machine because an update annoyed them one time, and that would be fine if it didn't impact others.

Shikadi 9y ago
I have experienced the first point many many times, and no, they aren't registry hacks. I've had things get reset straight out of Windows power options among others for example.
- mattgreenrocks 9y ago
  Early on, I think I've seen W10 update my GPU drivers while I was in game, which crashed it. I've also seen my TV mirroring setup wiped out by driver updates that happened behind my back. Windows 10 doesn't seem to respect the user as much as previous releases.
- WorldMaker 9y ago
  Microsoft had some early hiccups in settings being forgetful when reprovisioning them in updates, and apologized for those on the Windows 10 blogs (and especially to Insiders who saw it the most; and also helped report it and fix it). Windows 10 has gotten more reliable to not accidentally forget settings with each major update.

Santosh83 9y ago

> BTW, that free upgrade still works, it just isn't advertised. For above mentioned reasons, many consider Windows 10 to be the inferior version, not the previous ones. This is interesting! Can you expand? Where or how can one still upgrade to 10 now? AFAIK even the free upgrade extension for those using assistive technologies has been withdrawn.

Torgo 9y ago
I have been able to do it by acquiring a Windows 10 install CD, booting from it, and doing an upgrade.

mattgreenrocks 9y ago

I really dislike that MS is willing to impair the experience of more experienced users because other users can't be bothered to update. IMO, the MS of old would've let you opt out via a registry hack that you enable once and forget about, rather than constantly screwing with your computer to fix things.

WorldMaker 9y ago
The problem used to be that old registry hack would go viral in an old person email chain or some terrible adware/malware app would suggest it as a way to "speed up your machine" or worse some virus would do it unsuspectingly as a way to cover its tracks and a lot of inexperienced users would suddenly stop updating their machines regularly.