7 ms·

What exactly is wrong with Windows 10 though? In my opinion, it has been a huge improvement over Windows 8/8.1. Also, the Linux subsystem feature seems pretty u

by Cyph0n 9y ago

What exactly is wrong with Windows 10 though? In my opinion, it has been a huge improvement over Windows 8/8.1. Also, the Linux subsystem feature seems pretty usable to me.

na85 9y ago
Baked-in telemetry, for one.
- Someone1234 9y ago
  Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 all had built in telemetry too. Windows 10 added some additional telemetry for Windows Store Apps and a few built in services to see if anyone is utilizing them, but overall if you set Diagnostic Data to "Basic" your privacy is in a similar state to previous versions of Windows. Here's documentation on it: - Basic diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic... - Full diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windows-diagnostic-data-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windo... - How Microsoft handles the data, common questions, more info on what is collected, etc: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/configure-windows-diagnostic-data-in-your-organization#how-is-telemetry-data-handled-by-microsoft https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/confi...
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 all had built in telemetry too. Please tell me what built-in telemetry you think we have on our Windows 7 machines (where we typically don't deploy any non-security updates without a good reason).
- cube2222 9y ago
  I don't really get what people don't like about baked-in telemetry. C'mon, every software engineer knows that statistics help immensely to make a better product. This is such standard practice and it's anonymized. They do not care about your personal life.
  - randomString1 9y ago
    With all that's going on with the world (especially the last decade) a lot of people, like me, feels that having telemetry at the OS level is going too far. And think again about data being anonymized when they have so much of it (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10456855 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10456855). Even if I trust MS (or Google, or Apple, anybody) 100% it's still too much responsibility. Even worse for people that are forever locked to Windows because of their line of work, clients or something else. They have no option, they can't even pay more to stop the data collection. Not to mention HIPAA and other problems that may affect small business owners.
    - cube2222 9y ago
      Thanks for the link, I'll make sure to read it. In regards to trust, you can actually view the diagnostic data since the insider build half a month ago using windows diagnostic data viewer. Regarding businesses: I do think you can disable all of that using group policy in Windows Enterprise
      - randomString1 9y ago
        > In regards to trust, you can actually view the diagnostic data since the insider build half a month ago using windows diagnostic data viewer. Once again a matter of trust (or not wanting ANY data to be sent, a radio silent OS aside from updates and features that actually require internet access and you opt-in on using them). Would be trivial to lie about the data in the UI. I don't know if it's possible to intercept the data for analysis, so people can verify that it matches the UI. > Regarding businesses: I do think you can disable all of that using group policy in Windows Enterprise Nope, even the Security setting still collects data. https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/con...
        cube2222 9y ago
        Just to the first one. I do think that people would already notice improper data being sent to MS after Windows 10 is out for 2 years (or maybe 3 already?). It would be waaaay to risky for them to lie about something like that and actually put personally identifiable info there.
- SippinLean 9y ago
  That was backported to 7 though. You can disable it in 7 by memorizing the KB #'s of the updates that install them and refusing them, but it's just as much work as installing Spybot Anti-beacon on 10.
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    You can disable it on Windows 7, though. That's the most important point. If you adopted the policy of only installing security updates, which plenty of people did after GWX if not before, you didn't get that other junk anyway. The way Microsoft have actively made it more difficult to install only security updates on older versions of Windows recently is yet another reason not to trust them with updates you can't control at all on newer versions. They brought this mistrust upon themselves by abusing their position deliberately and repeatedly, so I don't think anyone can blame the sceptics. The really sad thing is the number of people, even here on HN where you'd expect to find relatively well-informed discussion, who completely miss the distinction between security updates and updates more generally when debating this issue. I mean, we are literally talking about an organisation that pushed out an entire new operating system via the update process, and they deliberately did so in such a way that many people now have that new OS and didn't necessarily want it or actively did not want it.
    - SippinLean 9y ago
      Right, and you can disable it in 10 as well. >it's just as much work as installing Spybot Anti-beacon on 10 Most apps automate the process. In 7 you have to memorize the 8-digit code associated with the updates you don't want.
nsxwolf 9y ago
I'd say it's the best overall Windows version from a UI and features perspective. But the forced updates have caused me so many headaches that I hate it nearly as much as I hated XP during its spyware and rootkit wild west era.
Someone1234 9y ago
Nothing. But people have trapped themselves in a corner. They refused to do the free upgrade, now the opportunity has passed, and they are left stuck on an older inferior version which is near EoL for no great reason. So they just keep parroting poorly reasoned arguments, repeating conspiracies, or acting smug & superior for simply being contrarian.
- vetinari 9y ago
  > Nothing. I take issue with this. There are several problems with Windows 10: - silent updates, that you cannot control them or disable them, - these updates reset your setting, enable things you explicitly disabled, behind your back, - Microsoft still didn't document what data they are exfiltrating, and doesn't allow to disable call-to-home functionality. BTW, that free upgrade still works, it just isn't advertised. For above mentioned reasons, many consider Windows 10 to be the inferior version, not the previous ones.
  - cube2222 9y ago
    Silent updates: Don't really know what you mean. Can't control: You can postpone them for quite a while. I'm sure it's at least 30 days, but you can do for much longer I think. Can't disable: Yea, what a pity, people won't be getting hacked by malware that got preventive updates shipped a year ago. Reset settings: there was something like that, that's true, but the last time it happened, it was like a year ago, and I do think this is a case of "don't attribute malice to something that can by caused by a mistake". Didn't still document: Half a month ago they put the windows diagnostic data viewer into windows, you can look up all telemetry that's getting sent back home.
    - vetinari 9y ago
      Silent updates: it is up to these people, whether they want to risk getting hacked, not up to Microsoft. Reset settings: still happens. The worse thing is, that firewall rules for application packages have version numbers in them, so when you change the rule, and the package updates... you rule is ineffective. And no, Bing doesn't to know, what I'm searching local start menu for. Didn't still document: so you know what "cV" or "iKey" values mean? Still, where's the "off" option? Mozilla doesn't get the telemetry from me, and there is an universe of difference, how trustworthy Mozilla is compared to Microsoft.
cm2187 9y ago
The list is long but top reasons for me after having used it for a while: - start menu completely random. Like typing "upd" doesn't display anything but typing "update" shows windows update. And the behaviour doesn't seem to be stable. Sometimes old control panels show, sometimes not. Seems to be erratic through time and across different machines. - microsoft dropping unwanted apps regularly in the start menu. Candy crunch, all sort of ads for sponsored software - Frequent forced reboots - Microsoft trying to force my hand on everything. Like default apps, making it difficult to change the default or for videos and images requiring me to confirm on every single different file extension one by one, or not allowing to select an app by its file path for all images or videos (only allowing me to pick from a shortlist of useless apps), making it difficult to create local accounts, all these multiple opt out confirmations are annoying. No means no. - telemetry - two control panels and making things worse, settings progressively moving between the two such that the location of a setting is unpredictable. The new control panel often gives the feeling of having been simplified (which in itself is fine) but also to hide the access to more advanced options (not fine). - generally speaking the big buttons, all grey UI is not particularly pleasant - many small usability features. Like when prompting for credentials, the RDP client doesn't allow you to access the username and password boxes with the keyboard, you have to select them with your mouse. It feels unfinished. - I haven't had blue screen for a long time on windows 7, while it has become quite common on windows 10 - repeated interruptions. The OS should be discreet and not be interrupting your workflow unnecessarily. They since removed the full screen notifications in windows 10, but didn't for Windows Server 2016. There are notable improvements too. Like finally being able to copy-paste in command lines was long overdue. The server features are also much better (hyper-v, powershell functionalities, IIS, etc). But on balance I think it provides a poor experience. I am not saying Windows 7 is perfect either, it comes with its own annoyances but I think it's not as bad.
- wakkaflokka 9y ago
  The start menu searching bugs me to no end. I have a hard time understanding why something like that isn't fixed/improved. It's so terrible, it's impossible to miss.
- Santosh83 9y ago

by Cyph0n 9y ago

What exactly is wrong with Windows 10 though? In my opinion, it has been a huge improvement over Windows 8/8.1. Also, the Linux subsystem feature seems pretty usable to me.

na85 9y ago

Baked-in telemetry, for one.

Someone1234 9y ago
Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 all had built in telemetry too. Windows 10 added some additional telemetry for Windows Store Apps and a few built in services to see if anyone is utilizing them, but overall if you set Diagnostic Data to "Basic" your privacy is in a similar state to previous versions of Windows. Here's documentation on it: - Basic diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic... - Full diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windows-diagnostic-data-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windo... - How Microsoft handles the data, common questions, more info on what is collected, etc: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/configure-windows-diagnostic-data-in-your-organization#how-is-telemetry-data-handled-by-microsoft https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/confi...
- Silhouette 9y ago
  Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 all had built in telemetry too. Please tell me what built-in telemetry you think we have on our Windows 7 machines (where we typically don't deploy any non-security updates without a good reason).
cube2222 9y ago
I don't really get what people don't like about baked-in telemetry. C'mon, every software engineer knows that statistics help immensely to make a better product. This is such standard practice and it's anonymized. They do not care about your personal life.
- randomString1 9y ago
  With all that's going on with the world (especially the last decade) a lot of people, like me, feels that having telemetry at the OS level is going too far. And think again about data being anonymized when they have so much of it (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10456855 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10456855). Even if I trust MS (or Google, or Apple, anybody) 100% it's still too much responsibility. Even worse for people that are forever locked to Windows because of their line of work, clients or something else. They have no option, they can't even pay more to stop the data collection. Not to mention HIPAA and other problems that may affect small business owners.
  - cube2222 9y ago
    Thanks for the link, I'll make sure to read it. In regards to trust, you can actually view the diagnostic data since the insider build half a month ago using windows diagnostic data viewer. Regarding businesses: I do think you can disable all of that using group policy in Windows Enterprise
    - randomString1 9y ago
      > In regards to trust, you can actually view the diagnostic data since the insider build half a month ago using windows diagnostic data viewer. Once again a matter of trust (or not wanting ANY data to be sent, a radio silent OS aside from updates and features that actually require internet access and you opt-in on using them). Would be trivial to lie about the data in the UI. I don't know if it's possible to intercept the data for analysis, so people can verify that it matches the UI. > Regarding businesses: I do think you can disable all of that using group policy in Windows Enterprise Nope, even the Security setting still collects data. https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/con...
      - cube2222 9y ago
        Just to the first one. I do think that people would already notice improper data being sent to MS after Windows 10 is out for 2 years (or maybe 3 already?). It would be waaaay to risky for them to lie about something like that and actually put personally identifiable info there.
SippinLean 9y ago
That was backported to 7 though. You can disable it in 7 by memorizing the KB #'s of the updates that install them and refusing them, but it's just as much work as installing Spybot Anti-beacon on 10.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  You can disable it on Windows 7, though. That's the most important point. If you adopted the policy of only installing security updates, which plenty of people did after GWX if not before, you didn't get that other junk anyway. The way Microsoft have actively made it more difficult to install only security updates on older versions of Windows recently is yet another reason not to trust them with updates you can't control at all on newer versions. They brought this mistrust upon themselves by abusing their position deliberately and repeatedly, so I don't think anyone can blame the sceptics. The really sad thing is the number of people, even here on HN where you'd expect to find relatively well-informed discussion, who completely miss the distinction between security updates and updates more generally when debating this issue. I mean, we are literally talking about an organisation that pushed out an entire new operating system via the update process, and they deliberately did so in such a way that many people now have that new OS and didn't necessarily want it or actively did not want it.
  - SippinLean 9y ago
    Right, and you can disable it in 10 as well. >it's just as much work as installing Spybot Anti-beacon on 10 Most apps automate the process. In 7 you have to memorize the 8-digit code associated with the updates you don't want.

nsxwolf 9y ago

I'd say it's the best overall Windows version from a UI and features perspective. But the forced updates have caused me so many headaches that I hate it nearly as much as I hated XP during its spyware and rootkit wild west era.

Someone1234 9y ago

Nothing. But people have trapped themselves in a corner. They refused to do the free upgrade, now the opportunity has passed, and they are left stuck on an older inferior version which is near EoL for no great reason. So they just keep parroting poorly reasoned arguments, repeating conspiracies, or acting smug & superior for simply being contrarian.

vetinari 9y ago
> Nothing. I take issue with this. There are several problems with Windows 10: - silent updates, that you cannot control them or disable them, - these updates reset your setting, enable things you explicitly disabled, behind your back, - Microsoft still didn't document what data they are exfiltrating, and doesn't allow to disable call-to-home functionality. BTW, that free upgrade still works, it just isn't advertised. For above mentioned reasons, many consider Windows 10 to be the inferior version, not the previous ones.
- cube2222 9y ago
  Silent updates: Don't really know what you mean. Can't control: You can postpone them for quite a while. I'm sure it's at least 30 days, but you can do for much longer I think. Can't disable: Yea, what a pity, people won't be getting hacked by malware that got preventive updates shipped a year ago. Reset settings: there was something like that, that's true, but the last time it happened, it was like a year ago, and I do think this is a case of "don't attribute malice to something that can by caused by a mistake". Didn't still document: Half a month ago they put the windows diagnostic data viewer into windows, you can look up all telemetry that's getting sent back home.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    Silent updates: it is up to these people, whether they want to risk getting hacked, not up to Microsoft. Reset settings: still happens. The worse thing is, that firewall rules for application packages have version numbers in them, so when you change the rule, and the package updates... you rule is ineffective. And no, Bing doesn't to know, what I'm searching local start menu for. Didn't still document: so you know what "cV" or "iKey" values mean? Still, where's the "off" option? Mozilla doesn't get the telemetry from me, and there is an universe of difference, how trustworthy Mozilla is compared to Microsoft.

cm2187 9y ago

The list is long but top reasons for me after having used it for a while: - start menu completely random. Like typing "upd" doesn't display anything but typing "update" shows windows update. And the behaviour doesn't seem to be stable. Sometimes old control panels show, sometimes not. Seems to be erratic through time and across different machines. - microsoft dropping unwanted apps regularly in the start menu. Candy crunch, all sort of ads for sponsored software - Frequent forced reboots - Microsoft trying to force my hand on everything. Like default apps, making it difficult to change the default or for videos and images requiring me to confirm on every single different file extension one by one, or not allowing to select an app by its file path for all images or videos (only allowing me to pick from a shortlist of useless apps), making it difficult to create local accounts, all these multiple opt out confirmations are annoying. No means no. - telemetry - two control panels and making things worse, settings progressively moving between the two such that the location of a setting is unpredictable. The new control panel often gives the feeling of having been simplified (which in itself is fine) but also to hide the access to more advanced options (not fine). - generally speaking the big buttons, all grey UI is not particularly pleasant - many small usability features. Like when prompting for credentials, the RDP client doesn't allow you to access the username and password boxes with the keyboard, you have to select them with your mouse. It feels unfinished. - I haven't had blue screen for a long time on windows 7, while it has become quite common on windows 10 - repeated interruptions. The OS should be discreet and not be interrupting your workflow unnecessarily. They since removed the full screen notifications in windows 10, but didn't for Windows Server 2016. There are notable improvements too. Like finally being able to copy-paste in command lines was long overdue. The server features are also much better (hyper-v, powershell functionalities, IIS, etc). But on balance I think it provides a poor experience. I am not saying Windows 7 is perfect either, it comes with its own annoyances but I think it's not as bad.

wakkaflokka 9y ago
The start menu searching bugs me to no end. I have a hard time understanding why something like that isn't fixed/improved. It's so terrible, it's impossible to miss.
Santosh83 9y ago