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Our bodies are physically isolated from others. Our emotions, ideas, etc. are not. When a crowd at a football game emotes, they all emote together.. inevitabl

Our bodies are physically isolated from others. Our emotions, ideas, etc. are not. When a crowd at a football game emotes, they all emote together.. inevitably and causally functioning as a coherent whole. Because the individuals cannot chose their reactions, they react the same way. They adopt a purpose, agency, goals and emotional structure that is only rationally intelligble when applied to the whole group. Morality is founded in this inevitable common reaction to circumstances which binds people together under common purpose. Isolating people destroys their ability to act acording to their moral desires... you impair yourself to be how you would wish to be. That's to say nothing of the mere collective action problems involved in any system of "mere individuals" whose cooperation cannot be guaranteed. NB. incidentally, (nearly?) all human success is founded in coherent group action. The individual is a stupid useless distractable ape. Only in concert with a common-purpose-with-others do we succeed. This is, after all, what a "business" is.

hutzlibu 9y ago
"When a crowd at a football game emotes, they all emote together.. inevitably and causally functioning as a coherent whole. Because the individuals cannot chose their reactions, they react the same way. " Definitely not. Only if I feel part of the group, I feel and emote with the group. But if I think football(or soccer) is stupid and the crowd full of stinking alcoholics, then you won't find me cheering with the group. I experienced both. But that's also why you won't find me near a stadium. But with society in a bigger context, it is not so easy to choose.
- mjburgess 9y ago
  Yeah, you're a lone wolf. No you arent. You're an ape. You arent chosing anything you feel, including this rebelliousness which may have its origins in fear of unpredictable group emoting. I have that fear too, I am equally mistrusful of groups and of authority. But that mechanism is merely a feedback cycle into group emotional regulation. Your fear is just another tool of group cohesion. We are fundamentally a social species it is core to the construction of our psychology. Your dissent isnt lonefulness, in which you wouldnt even be commenting here.. your impetus to involve yourself with others is your group drive. Even if, internally, this seems "rebellious" -- rebellion is a mode of group interaction.
  - hutzlibu 9y ago
    Hm, you got me wrong there. Even though I am lonewolfing quite a lot, I know I am a social being and I like to be part of a group. I am just turned off by most mainstream group's, which actually look to me that the main thing that is holding them together, is either force or alcohol. But those who do likes that, I don't mind. I am just into different groups.
    - mjburgess 9y ago
      You're conflating being "turned off" with some mythical form of individualism. What you mean by individualism is actually a form of group dynamic. > is either force or alcohol. In fact it is neither. It is the very same thing that provides you with impetus to comment here.
      - hutzlibu 9y ago
        And I believe you don't understand what I say. You say I am a individualistic lonewolf, because I don't like common groups that much and don't feel part of them, but rather be part of other groups to which I feel connected and therefore then also feel with that group? How does that add up. "> is either force or alcohol. In fact it is neither. It is the very same thing that provides you with impetus to comment here." And no, when I refer to a common school group for example, it is a group bound together by force - they all have to go to school and don't have much say which class etc. And when I refer to common drunk people on mainstream festivals who are friends as long as they are drunk, then they are bound mainly by alcohol, even though it does satisfy some social needs for them. And yes, next to intellectual curiosity, I also read and comment here because of the HN community, to which I feel connected. Did I ever said otherwise? (oh and by the way, wolves are also very social beeings and the lone wolf hunting is a very rare thing)

hutzlibu 9y ago

"When a crowd at a football game emotes, they all emote together.. inevitably and causally functioning as a coherent whole. Because the individuals cannot chose their reactions, they react the same way. " Definitely not. Only if I feel part of the group, I feel and emote with the group. But if I think football(or soccer) is stupid and the crowd full of stinking alcoholics, then you won't find me cheering with the group. I experienced both. But that's also why you won't find me near a stadium. But with society in a bigger context, it is not so easy to choose.

mjburgess 9y ago
Yeah, you're a lone wolf. No you arent. You're an ape. You arent chosing anything you feel, including this rebelliousness which may have its origins in fear of unpredictable group emoting. I have that fear too, I am equally mistrusful of groups and of authority. But that mechanism is merely a feedback cycle into group emotional regulation. Your fear is just another tool of group cohesion. We are fundamentally a social species it is core to the construction of our psychology. Your dissent isnt lonefulness, in which you wouldnt even be commenting here.. your impetus to involve yourself with others is your group drive. Even if, internally, this seems "rebellious" -- rebellion is a mode of group interaction.
- hutzlibu 9y ago
  Hm, you got me wrong there. Even though I am lonewolfing quite a lot, I know I am a social being and I like to be part of a group. I am just turned off by most mainstream group's, which actually look to me that the main thing that is holding them together, is either force or alcohol. But those who do likes that, I don't mind. I am just into different groups.
  - mjburgess 9y ago
    You're conflating being "turned off" with some mythical form of individualism. What you mean by individualism is actually a form of group dynamic. > is either force or alcohol. In fact it is neither. It is the very same thing that provides you with impetus to comment here.
    - hutzlibu 9y ago
      And I believe you don't understand what I say. You say I am a individualistic lonewolf, because I don't like common groups that much and don't feel part of them, but rather be part of other groups to which I feel connected and therefore then also feel with that group? How does that add up. "> is either force or alcohol. In fact it is neither. It is the very same thing that provides you with impetus to comment here." And no, when I refer to a common school group for example, it is a group bound together by force - they all have to go to school and don't have much say which class etc. And when I refer to common drunk people on mainstream festivals who are friends as long as they are drunk, then they are bound mainly by alcohol, even though it does satisfy some social needs for them. And yes, next to intellectual curiosity, I also read and comment here because of the HN community, to which I feel connected. Did I ever said otherwise? (oh and by the way, wolves are also very social beeings and the lone wolf hunting is a very rare thing)