10 ms·

To be honest, I would have been much more surprised if they'd spent time and money to support older versions as well. I mean, Win 7 mainstream support ended at

To be honest, I would have been much more surprised if they'd spent time and money to support older versions as well. I mean, Win 7 mainstream support ended at the end of 2014 I think with extended support to end in January 2020. Conclusion: entirely legitimate business decision?

Silhouette 9y ago
They're entitled to make whatever business decisions they like, but of course those of us who don't want anything to do with Windows 10 won't now buy their new product in this case, so only time will tell whether the business decision has the effect they're hoping for. Microsoft's strategy under Nadella seems to be shifting towards the extremes of enterprise-scale customers and lightweight home users at the expense of the SMEs and power users in between, so this decision seems consistent with their recent pattern.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  As it is, "those of you who don't want anything to do with Windows 10" will need to either get over it or switch to another platform. Windows 7 only has a couple years left. As it is, a surprising number of good apps are released through the Windows Store and only operate on Windows 10 machines. This will continue to increase over time.
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    As it is, "those of you who don't want anything to do with Windows 10" will need to either get over it or switch to another platform. We already did, for multiple businesses. We bought a few last Windows 7 machines while you could, and since then we're on other OSes as needs dictate. Contrary to popular opinion, the sky has not fallen, and it turns out that which OS you run your browser and web apps on doesn't really matter, and that there are some areas where the software you can use on other platforms is already better than what you get on a typical Windows deployment. Windows 7 only has a couple years left. Until what? Until it stops getting security updates from Microsoft, maybe. It will carry on running just fine beyond that point, though.
    - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
      Businesses cannot afford the risk of using operating systems without security updates. Realistically, consumers shouldn't either. If you realistically think buying businesses a bunch of Windows 7 PCs and keeping them running past the end of support is okay... keep a polished resume handy, because something is going to happen, and the businesses who you support are going to realize whose fault it was sooner or later. We are not in a place in the world security-wise where your attitude is workable in a modern business environment.
      - Silhouette 9y ago
        Businesses cannot afford the risk of using operating systems without security updates. That's a matter of judgement. Is the risk of downtime, data loss, or other damage from not having a patch on Windows 7 for a security flaw greater than or less than the risk of similarly bad things happening because Microsoft messed up another security update (or a non-security update that they forced on you)? As a matter of objective fact, my businesses have lost far more time -- orders of magnitude more -- due to botched Microsoft updates, including bad security updates on multiple occasions, then due to any sort of malware or other attacks. Of course, we're not crazy. We have a variety of other countermeasures layered around our systems that would deal with most threats long before they could reach a PC even if there were some vulnerability there that could theoretically be exploited. We are not in a place in the world security-wise where your attitude is workable in a modern business environment. IMNSHO, we are not in a place where PCs that can update their operating system arbitrarily, restart arbitrarily, and upload data arbitrarily is workable either. If we ran Windows 10, we would be in instant violation of just about every NDA or confidentiality agreement we've ever entered into, not to mention violating assorted legal and industry regulations. What has unpleasantly surprised me about Windows 10 is that more people don't have a problem with this gaping hole in their security and compliance infrastructure. Obviously the big players can't and won't accept those risks, and presumably that's why Windows 10 Enterprise doesn't have the same problems that we refuse to accept in a smaller environment. But the number of places dealing with sensitive data or critical systems who are apparently happy to be wide open to problems here is genuinely shocking to me, particularly after so many have had actual rather than hypothetical problems.
- Cyph0n 9y ago
  What exactly is wrong with Windows 10 though? In my opinion, it has been a huge improvement over Windows 8/8.1. Also, the Linux subsystem feature seems pretty usable to me.
  - na85 9y ago
    Baked-in telemetry, for one.
    - Someone1234 9y ago
      Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 all had built in telemetry too. Windows 10 added some additional telemetry for Windows Store Apps and a few built in services to see if anyone is utilizing them, but overall if you set Diagnostic Data to "Basic" your privacy is in a similar state to previous versions of Windows. Here's documentation on it: - Basic diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic... - Full diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windows-diagnostic-data-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windo... - How Microsoft handles the data, common questions, more info on what is collected, etc: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/configure-windows-diagnostic-data-in-your-organization#how-is-telemetry-data-handled-by-microsoft https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/confi...
      - Silhouette 9y ago
        Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 all had built in telemetry too. Please tell me what built-in telemetry you think we have on our Windows 7 machines (where we typically don't deploy any non-security updates without a good reason).
    - cube2222 9y ago
      I don't really get what people don't like about baked-in telemetry. C'mon, every software engineer knows that statistics help immensely to make a better product. This is such standard practice and it's anonymized. They do not care about your personal life.
- pythonaut_16 9y ago
  If you don't want anything to do with Windows 10 they've lost you as a customer already. Losing sales to people who refuse to update to Windows 10 will be more than offset by people who upgrade in order to use this version of Office, not to mention the savings from not supporting and testing for older versions of Windows.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    I don't see many people upgrading Windows in order to upgrade Office. Those, who are enthusiasts, that have to have the latest version, are on Windows 10 already. Those who are conservative and have older Windows edition, and will have similar attitude to upgrading the Office. Looking around me, people are fine to run 2007/2010/2013, it seems I'm the only one running 2016. What I see to be a worse thing than supporting Windows 10 only, is that for the retail/non-o365 version there is no install media. It is click-to-run only.
    - Santosh83 9y ago
      > What I see to be a worse thing than supporting Windows 10 only, is that for the retail/non-o365 version there is no install media. It is click-to-run only. Why is that? Because of the necessity to download a multi-GB install file after purchasing the key?
      - red_admiral 9y ago
        As long as you can download the installer once and save it to DVD/USB, I think that's a legitimate decision too. Producing physical install media, boxes etc. is an overhead that I'm guessing most people would rather do without these days.
        Santosh83 9y ago
        You can use the same installer file (downloaded once) for multiple installations. It works as long as you bought the required licenses. So packaged installer media would only really benefit people in remote places where an internet connection is non-existent or slow/expensive, but MS has obviously decided to optimise that case out.
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  >those of us who don't want anything to do with Windows 10 won't now buy their new product in this case I’m sure a multi-billion dollar corporation with some very smart people thought of that. They probably even consider it a benefit.
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    That's the same huge corporation that produced Windows Vista and Windows 8, and assorted Windows Phone disasters. I think they've exhausted reasonable benefit of the doubt when it comes to how they make and market Windows.
    - BoorishBears 9y ago
      This is why HN comment sections shouldn't make such sweeping comments... in what way do you draw a link between Vista, 8, and Phone and this topic. Even with all their missteps they're a company with a 700 Billion dollar market cap, shoving a few missteps in the air as proof they're somehow incompetent shows a certain lack of appreciation for how successful of a company they are.
      - Silhouette 9y ago
        They're a multi-billion dollar corporation that has launched several train wrecks, including two from within the very same team that we're talking about here, in recent years. Of course there are parallels with whether they could produce Windows Vista that a lot of people didn't want, Windows 8 that a lot of people didn't want, and Windows 10 that a lot of people don't want now. Your argument that they have lots of smart people who wouldn't get a basic business strategy wrong just doesn't hold water, at all.
        BoorishBears 9y ago
        My argument that a company that has managed to manuver 42 years of changing successfully enough to become a 700 Billion dollar company might have some people with businesses acumen and more insight than a random HN commenter is clearly torpedoed because of your 20/20 hindsight review of 2 products based on no actual hard data because ... a random HN commentor wouldn’t have that... Sure. I’d love to see the crew you run with that would have managed to keep MS relevant for this long. I should add, if you really think MS is building products no one wants, you really should put your money where your mouth is and short them. (but please, no cliched response about how the market is just irrational about them)
- bunderbunder 9y ago
  I'm guessing this is an informed business decision on their part. It boils down to a pretty simple inequality: Supporting older versions of Windows in the new Office is only worthwhile if the expected additional profits from sales to people who have decided not to upgrade to Windows 10 are greater than the expected additional development cost of supporting older versions of Windows. Probably there's a fudge factor in there, too. Probably, that fudge factor nudges things away from supporting Windows 7, because Windows XP. I'm guessing it also nudges things away from supporting Windows 8, because I don't know of many people who were willing to upgrade to Windows 8 but no further.
- joncrane 9y ago
  For home use, is anything more sophisticated than Google Docs?
  - Santosh83 9y ago
    Yes, for a spreadsheet with 10s of thousands of rows, Google Sheets starts crawling like molasses.
- LocalPCGuy 9y ago
  Someone who doesn't want Windows 10 also likely doesn't want Windows 8. They are likely sticking with a non-supported Windows 7, and so I'm with Microsoft on this one. Personally, I'm hoping things like this drives more people to Linux to make it a truly valid alternative for average users.
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    Windows 7 is supported until 2020 for security updates, which is the main thing that matters. And given that Windows 10 only just overtook Windows 7 in popularity according to reports this week, the idea that Windows 7 is some sort of legacy system just doesn't fly, no matter how much Microsoft might wish it so. They made a turkey with Windows 8. They made a turkey with most editions of Windows 10. There is a reason so many of us have been holding out on 7 and/or switching platforms over the past few years, and the reason is simply that more recent Windows releases haven't been attractive enough to use them instead.
- red_admiral 9y ago
  The bit that puzzles me is their store strategy. Apple sets up an app store and the money's rolling in. Google sets up an app store and the money's rolling in. Microsoft sets up and app store, and even removes the feature to disable it in enterprise versions of the OS ... and the last thing I heard about it, they've been paying developers big money to port some of their applications to the Microsoft store. I wonder if they're doing much more than breaking even. Of course they're at a disadvantage as a desktop OS because their app store is competing with being able to download and install programs from the web. But I still wonder, if they're focussing on home users, don't they need to offer a bit friendlier to developers if they want people to write apps that they can charge the home users for?
Santosh83 9y ago
Agree but Windows 8.1 will be supported until 2023 AFAIK. I would have liked it had they supported it in addition to 10.
- ghostly_s 9y ago
  I have yet to encounter any arguments in favor of sticking with Windows 8.1 vs. 10. Isn't it pretty much universally regarded as a dud release? It seems like the smarter move here would be to kill the LTS for 8 than devote a bunch of effort to supporting their most popular product on their least popular platform.
  - Nerdfest 9y ago
    Someone that paid for 8 would probably disagree. It's no longer a free upgrade, is it? Perhaps people should switch to LibreOffice. It's really more usable according to most people I've talked to.
    - jdmichal 9y ago
      Most people haven't even heard of LibreOffice, much less tried it. There's a definite sampling bias there.
  - Santosh83 9y ago
    Windows 8 was widely accepted as a problematic release and there's no current support for it. But almost no one remains on 8. On the other hand, Windows 8.1 is a perfectly fine OS and there are still significant number of users from what I saw in the latest census. It's slightly faster and lighter than 7 and does not have many of the components of 10 that some users don't seem to like. My own machine came from OEM with 8.1, but I upgraded during the free phase and while I personally like 10 even more, am sure there are people who are hoping to remain on 8.1 for as long as possible, so it would have been munificent of MS to have supported Office 19 on their platform, but I guess they won't and that's that.
    - 9y ago

Silhouette 9y ago

They're entitled to make whatever business decisions they like, but of course those of us who don't want anything to do with Windows 10 won't now buy their new product in this case, so only time will tell whether the business decision has the effect they're hoping for. Microsoft's strategy under Nadella seems to be shifting towards the extremes of enterprise-scale customers and lightweight home users at the expense of the SMEs and power users in between, so this decision seems consistent with their recent pattern.

ocdtrekkie 9y ago
As it is, "those of you who don't want anything to do with Windows 10" will need to either get over it or switch to another platform. Windows 7 only has a couple years left. As it is, a surprising number of good apps are released through the Windows Store and only operate on Windows 10 machines. This will continue to increase over time.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  As it is, "those of you who don't want anything to do with Windows 10" will need to either get over it or switch to another platform. We already did, for multiple businesses. We bought a few last Windows 7 machines while you could, and since then we're on other OSes as needs dictate. Contrary to popular opinion, the sky has not fallen, and it turns out that which OS you run your browser and web apps on doesn't really matter, and that there are some areas where the software you can use on other platforms is already better than what you get on a typical Windows deployment. Windows 7 only has a couple years left. Until what? Until it stops getting security updates from Microsoft, maybe. It will carry on running just fine beyond that point, though.
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    Businesses cannot afford the risk of using operating systems without security updates. Realistically, consumers shouldn't either. If you realistically think buying businesses a bunch of Windows 7 PCs and keeping them running past the end of support is okay... keep a polished resume handy, because something is going to happen, and the businesses who you support are going to realize whose fault it was sooner or later. We are not in a place in the world security-wise where your attitude is workable in a modern business environment.
    - Silhouette 9y ago
      Businesses cannot afford the risk of using operating systems without security updates. That's a matter of judgement. Is the risk of downtime, data loss, or other damage from not having a patch on Windows 7 for a security flaw greater than or less than the risk of similarly bad things happening because Microsoft messed up another security update (or a non-security update that they forced on you)? As a matter of objective fact, my businesses have lost far more time -- orders of magnitude more -- due to botched Microsoft updates, including bad security updates on multiple occasions, then due to any sort of malware or other attacks. Of course, we're not crazy. We have a variety of other countermeasures layered around our systems that would deal with most threats long before they could reach a PC even if there were some vulnerability there that could theoretically be exploited. We are not in a place in the world security-wise where your attitude is workable in a modern business environment. IMNSHO, we are not in a place where PCs that can update their operating system arbitrarily, restart arbitrarily, and upload data arbitrarily is workable either. If we ran Windows 10, we would be in instant violation of just about every NDA or confidentiality agreement we've ever entered into, not to mention violating assorted legal and industry regulations. What has unpleasantly surprised me about Windows 10 is that more people don't have a problem with this gaping hole in their security and compliance infrastructure. Obviously the big players can't and won't accept those risks, and presumably that's why Windows 10 Enterprise doesn't have the same problems that we refuse to accept in a smaller environment. But the number of places dealing with sensitive data or critical systems who are apparently happy to be wide open to problems here is genuinely shocking to me, particularly after so many have had actual rather than hypothetical problems.
Cyph0n 9y ago
What exactly is wrong with Windows 10 though? In my opinion, it has been a huge improvement over Windows 8/8.1. Also, the Linux subsystem feature seems pretty usable to me.
- na85 9y ago
  Baked-in telemetry, for one.
  - Someone1234 9y ago
    Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 all had built in telemetry too. Windows 10 added some additional telemetry for Windows Store Apps and a few built in services to see if anyone is utilizing them, but overall if you set Diagnostic Data to "Basic" your privacy is in a similar state to previous versions of Windows. Here's documentation on it: - Basic diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic-level-windows-diagnostic-events-and-fields-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/basic... - Full diagnostic data: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windows-diagnostic-data-1703 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windo... - How Microsoft handles the data, common questions, more info on what is collected, etc: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/configure-windows-diagnostic-data-in-your-organization#how-is-telemetry-data-handled-by-microsoft https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/confi...
    - Silhouette 9y ago
      Windows 7, 8, and 8.1 all had built in telemetry too. Please tell me what built-in telemetry you think we have on our Windows 7 machines (where we typically don't deploy any non-security updates without a good reason).
  - cube2222 9y ago
    I don't really get what people don't like about baked-in telemetry. C'mon, every software engineer knows that statistics help immensely to make a better product. This is such standard practice and it's anonymized. They do not care about your personal life.
pythonaut_16 9y ago
If you don't want anything to do with Windows 10 they've lost you as a customer already. Losing sales to people who refuse to update to Windows 10 will be more than offset by people who upgrade in order to use this version of Office, not to mention the savings from not supporting and testing for older versions of Windows.
- vetinari 9y ago
  I don't see many people upgrading Windows in order to upgrade Office. Those, who are enthusiasts, that have to have the latest version, are on Windows 10 already. Those who are conservative and have older Windows edition, and will have similar attitude to upgrading the Office. Looking around me, people are fine to run 2007/2010/2013, it seems I'm the only one running 2016. What I see to be a worse thing than supporting Windows 10 only, is that for the retail/non-o365 version there is no install media. It is click-to-run only.
  - Santosh83 9y ago
    > What I see to be a worse thing than supporting Windows 10 only, is that for the retail/non-o365 version there is no install media. It is click-to-run only. Why is that? Because of the necessity to download a multi-GB install file after purchasing the key?
    - red_admiral 9y ago
      As long as you can download the installer once and save it to DVD/USB, I think that's a legitimate decision too. Producing physical install media, boxes etc. is an overhead that I'm guessing most people would rather do without these days.
      - Santosh83 9y ago
        You can use the same installer file (downloaded once) for multiple installations. It works as long as you bought the required licenses. So packaged installer media would only really benefit people in remote places where an internet connection is non-existent or slow/expensive, but MS has obviously decided to optimise that case out.
BoorishBears 9y ago
>those of us who don't want anything to do with Windows 10 won't now buy their new product in this case I’m sure a multi-billion dollar corporation with some very smart people thought of that. They probably even consider it a benefit.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  That's the same huge corporation that produced Windows Vista and Windows 8, and assorted Windows Phone disasters. I think they've exhausted reasonable benefit of the doubt when it comes to how they make and market Windows.
  - BoorishBears 9y ago
    This is why HN comment sections shouldn't make such sweeping comments... in what way do you draw a link between Vista, 8, and Phone and this topic. Even with all their missteps they're a company with a 700 Billion dollar market cap, shoving a few missteps in the air as proof they're somehow incompetent shows a certain lack of appreciation for how successful of a company they are.
    - Silhouette 9y ago
      They're a multi-billion dollar corporation that has launched several train wrecks, including two from within the very same team that we're talking about here, in recent years. Of course there are parallels with whether they could produce Windows Vista that a lot of people didn't want, Windows 8 that a lot of people didn't want, and Windows 10 that a lot of people don't want now. Your argument that they have lots of smart people who wouldn't get a basic business strategy wrong just doesn't hold water, at all.
      - BoorishBears 9y ago
        My argument that a company that has managed to manuver 42 years of changing successfully enough to become a 700 Billion dollar company might have some people with businesses acumen and more insight than a random HN commenter is clearly torpedoed because of your 20/20 hindsight review of 2 products based on no actual hard data because ... a random HN commentor wouldn’t have that... Sure. I’d love to see the crew you run with that would have managed to keep MS relevant for this long. I should add, if you really think MS is building products no one wants, you really should put your money where your mouth is and short them. (but please, no cliched response about how the market is just irrational about them)
bunderbunder 9y ago
I'm guessing this is an informed business decision on their part. It boils down to a pretty simple inequality: Supporting older versions of Windows in the new Office is only worthwhile if the expected additional profits from sales to people who have decided not to upgrade to Windows 10 are greater than the expected additional development cost of supporting older versions of Windows. Probably there's a fudge factor in there, too. Probably, that fudge factor nudges things away from supporting Windows 7, because Windows XP. I'm guessing it also nudges things away from supporting Windows 8, because I don't know of many people who were willing to upgrade to Windows 8 but no further.
joncrane 9y ago
For home use, is anything more sophisticated than Google Docs?
- Santosh83 9y ago
  Yes, for a spreadsheet with 10s of thousands of rows, Google Sheets starts crawling like molasses.
LocalPCGuy 9y ago
Someone who doesn't want Windows 10 also likely doesn't want Windows 8. They are likely sticking with a non-supported Windows 7, and so I'm with Microsoft on this one. Personally, I'm hoping things like this drives more people to Linux to make it a truly valid alternative for average users.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  Windows 7 is supported until 2020 for security updates, which is the main thing that matters. And given that Windows 10 only just overtook Windows 7 in popularity according to reports this week, the idea that Windows 7 is some sort of legacy system just doesn't fly, no matter how much Microsoft might wish it so. They made a turkey with Windows 8. They made a turkey with most editions of Windows 10. There is a reason so many of us have been holding out on 7 and/or switching platforms over the past few years, and the reason is simply that more recent Windows releases haven't been attractive enough to use them instead.
red_admiral 9y ago
The bit that puzzles me is their store strategy. Apple sets up an app store and the money's rolling in. Google sets up an app store and the money's rolling in. Microsoft sets up and app store, and even removes the feature to disable it in enterprise versions of the OS ... and the last thing I heard about it, they've been paying developers big money to port some of their applications to the Microsoft store. I wonder if they're doing much more than breaking even. Of course they're at a disadvantage as a desktop OS because their app store is competing with being able to download and install programs from the web. But I still wonder, if they're focussing on home users, don't they need to offer a bit friendlier to developers if they want people to write apps that they can charge the home users for?

Santosh83 9y ago

Agree but Windows 8.1 will be supported until 2023 AFAIK. I would have liked it had they supported it in addition to 10.

ghostly_s 9y ago
I have yet to encounter any arguments in favor of sticking with Windows 8.1 vs. 10. Isn't it pretty much universally regarded as a dud release? It seems like the smarter move here would be to kill the LTS for 8 than devote a bunch of effort to supporting their most popular product on their least popular platform.
- Nerdfest 9y ago
  Someone that paid for 8 would probably disagree. It's no longer a free upgrade, is it? Perhaps people should switch to LibreOffice. It's really more usable according to most people I've talked to.
  - jdmichal 9y ago
    Most people haven't even heard of LibreOffice, much less tried it. There's a definite sampling bias there.
- Santosh83 9y ago
  Windows 8 was widely accepted as a problematic release and there's no current support for it. But almost no one remains on 8. On the other hand, Windows 8.1 is a perfectly fine OS and there are still significant number of users from what I saw in the latest census. It's slightly faster and lighter than 7 and does not have many of the components of 10 that some users don't seem to like. My own machine came from OEM with 8.1, but I upgraded during the free phase and while I personally like 10 even more, am sure there are people who are hoping to remain on 8.1 for as long as possible, so it would have been munificent of MS to have supported Office 19 on their platform, but I guess they won't and that's that.
  - 9y ago