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An insightful comment that had to be made - I wonder why people downvoted it. Indeed, Amazon is probably the best and the worst about the modern tech: an ambit

An insightful comment that had to be made - I wonder why people downvoted it. Indeed, Amazon is probably the best and the worst about the modern tech: an ambitious leader, who manages to create paradigm shifts in areas where he is not a subject matter expert; and a sweatshop-like environment where the low ranking employees are treated like oompah loompahs.

GabrielF00 9y ago
As an Amazon employee, I tend to think Amazon's reputation is overstated. Some teams definitely have very high operational loads, but in general my hours have been comparable to friends in similar tech companies and certainly less than friends in industries like medicine, management consulting, etc. It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- krapp 9y ago
  >It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are. With a company as large and complex as Amazon, many things can be relative, but if you work as an engineer or programmer at Amazon, chances are that conversation doesn't apply to you, or at least, that it applies less to you than to others.
- naturalgradient 9y ago
  Well compensated? Amazon pays significantly below other mega cap tech companies, and as a PhD student in machine learning with a lot of friends interning and applying for jobs I can confidently say Amazon is nobody's first choice due to low salaries and working conditions. I'd rather say I am amazed they get anyone great working for them because it really is clearly and painfully obvious that almost everyone would rather work for Google, Facebook or Microsoft regarding machine learning. Have first hand knowledge of salaries. Amazon offers 30-50% less than other top tech companies for machine learning. There is literally no silver lining or upside as far as I can tell. In that context, it does not matter if Amazon pays more than <other job> in <other industry> or treats employees better than <other company> in <other industry>.
  - ctvo 9y ago
    Every measurable I've seen has Amazon very close to total compensation for similar levels. The real differences are in perks and vesting schedule (theirs is notoriously bad - 5%, 15%, 40%, 40% I think) It's hard to make a case that they underpay by 50%, have horrific working hours yet still have / retain an engineering workforce that's talented enough to deliver consistently.
  - Analog24 9y ago
    This is selection bias. You have first hand knowledge of what Amazon offers new graduates with little or no industry experience (and yes, PhD students fall into this category). The compensation for more experienced employees is substantially higher.
    - naturalgradient 9y ago
      "The compensation for more experienced employees is substantially higher" Citation needed. Higher than compensation for experienced employees at Google/Facebook? I am not even disputing Amazon pays more later, I am saying Amazon never pays top tier AND treats employees badly AND has no perks or particular benefits to make up for it, so nobody who has the option (that I know of) wants to work there.
      - Analog24 9y ago
        Every company pays more later, I was trying to say that the pay gap between other companies disappears for mid+ level positions. Also, they do not treat employees badly. Are there cases where certain managers treat their employees poorly? Of course, you can find the same anecdotal examples at company of sufficiently large size. Since the infamous 2015 NYT article, employees are treated very well on average. For perks, if you're referring to free catered meals then, yes, Amazon lacks there. But how about working in downtown Seattle instead of some random suburb outside of San Jose? Finally, you ask for a citation about my claim while offering none for your own. My source: I work here so I actually have first hand experience.
  - arcanus 9y ago
- marssaxman 9y ago
  It certainly sounds like a sweatshop in the descriptions I've heard from friends who work there, or have worked there in the past, compared to the experiences I and others have had in other large tech companies. I can only think of three people I know who have stuck it out at Amazon for more than two years. The egregiously back-loaded vesting structure is clearly built around the expectation of a high attrition rate, so I believe that the meat-grinder effect exists by design and not merely incompetence.
  - natalyarostova 9y ago
    When I get stressed I just open my stock vesting page and say "two more years." :^)
- vadimberman 9y ago
  > It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are. Amazon employs over half a million people (https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-employees/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-...). I doubt engineers make more than 5-10%, someone has to mind the fulfillment centres, and the fully automatic robotic future is yet to arrive (https://qz.com/1039169/amazon-is-looking-to-hire-50000-people-in-one-day/ https://qz.com/1039169/amazon-is-looking-to-hire-50000-peopl...). The blue collars make up the bulk, and while the accounts of white-collar sweatshop conditions are argued about, nobody ever contradicted the accounts of blue-collar workers, and numerous complaints have been filed: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-settlement-could-pave-way-for-labor-unions/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-settlement-could-pave-wa....
backtoyoujim 9y ago
It is the inverse of Dunne's description of the free press; Amazon's job, it seems then, is to afflict the afflicted and comfort the comfortable.

GabrielF00 9y ago

As an Amazon employee, I tend to think Amazon's reputation is overstated. Some teams definitely have very high operational loads, but in general my hours have been comparable to friends in similar tech companies and certainly less than friends in industries like medicine, management consulting, etc. It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
krapp 9y ago
>It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are. With a company as large and complex as Amazon, many things can be relative, but if you work as an engineer or programmer at Amazon, chances are that conversation doesn't apply to you, or at least, that it applies less to you than to others.
naturalgradient 9y ago
Well compensated? Amazon pays significantly below other mega cap tech companies, and as a PhD student in machine learning with a lot of friends interning and applying for jobs I can confidently say Amazon is nobody's first choice due to low salaries and working conditions. I'd rather say I am amazed they get anyone great working for them because it really is clearly and painfully obvious that almost everyone would rather work for Google, Facebook or Microsoft regarding machine learning. Have first hand knowledge of salaries. Amazon offers 30-50% less than other top tech companies for machine learning. There is literally no silver lining or upside as far as I can tell. In that context, it does not matter if Amazon pays more than <other job> in <other industry> or treats employees better than <other company> in <other industry>.
- ctvo 9y ago
  Every measurable I've seen has Amazon very close to total compensation for similar levels. The real differences are in perks and vesting schedule (theirs is notoriously bad - 5%, 15%, 40%, 40% I think) It's hard to make a case that they underpay by 50%, have horrific working hours yet still have / retain an engineering workforce that's talented enough to deliver consistently.
- Analog24 9y ago
  This is selection bias. You have first hand knowledge of what Amazon offers new graduates with little or no industry experience (and yes, PhD students fall into this category). The compensation for more experienced employees is substantially higher.
  - naturalgradient 9y ago
    "The compensation for more experienced employees is substantially higher" Citation needed. Higher than compensation for experienced employees at Google/Facebook? I am not even disputing Amazon pays more later, I am saying Amazon never pays top tier AND treats employees badly AND has no perks or particular benefits to make up for it, so nobody who has the option (that I know of) wants to work there.
    - Analog24 9y ago
      Every company pays more later, I was trying to say that the pay gap between other companies disappears for mid+ level positions. Also, they do not treat employees badly. Are there cases where certain managers treat their employees poorly? Of course, you can find the same anecdotal examples at company of sufficiently large size. Since the infamous 2015 NYT article, employees are treated very well on average. For perks, if you're referring to free catered meals then, yes, Amazon lacks there. But how about working in downtown Seattle instead of some random suburb outside of San Jose? Finally, you ask for a citation about my claim while offering none for your own. My source: I work here so I actually have first hand experience.
- arcanus 9y ago
marssaxman 9y ago
It certainly sounds like a sweatshop in the descriptions I've heard from friends who work there, or have worked there in the past, compared to the experiences I and others have had in other large tech companies. I can only think of three people I know who have stuck it out at Amazon for more than two years. The egregiously back-loaded vesting structure is clearly built around the expectation of a high attrition rate, so I believe that the meat-grinder effect exists by design and not merely incompetence.
- natalyarostova 9y ago
  When I get stressed I just open my stock vesting page and say "two more years." :^)
vadimberman 9y ago
> It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are. Amazon employs over half a million people (https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-employees/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-...). I doubt engineers make more than 5-10%, someone has to mind the fulfillment centres, and the fully automatic robotic future is yet to arrive (https://qz.com/1039169/amazon-is-looking-to-hire-50000-people-in-one-day/ https://qz.com/1039169/amazon-is-looking-to-hire-50000-peopl...). The blue collars make up the bulk, and while the accounts of white-collar sweatshop conditions are argued about, nobody ever contradicted the accounts of blue-collar workers, and numerous complaints have been filed: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-settlement-could-pave-way-for-labor-unions/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-settlement-could-pave-wa....

backtoyoujim 9y ago

It is the inverse of Dunne's description of the free press; Amazon's job, it seems then, is to afflict the afflicted and comfort the comfortable.