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One thing which is sorely missed in such discussions is the employee efforts. Out of all the companies, Amazon's hours seems to be the worse of the lot. That s

One thing which is sorely missed in such discussions is the employee efforts. Out of all the companies, Amazon's hours seems to be the worse of the lot. That said, I really like Bezos (or Amazon) that they took risks on thing like AI, AWS etc. I find that lot of companies lack that insight. Even when they are not doing great, I routinely find executives hem and haw about their "core business". Most of these companies end up scraping the bottom of the barrel for profitability and keeping the company afloat for couple of years more.

vadimberman 9y ago
An insightful comment that had to be made - I wonder why people downvoted it. Indeed, Amazon is probably the best and the worst about the modern tech: an ambitious leader, who manages to create paradigm shifts in areas where he is not a subject matter expert; and a sweatshop-like environment where the low ranking employees are treated like oompah loompahs.
- GabrielF00 9y ago
  As an Amazon employee, I tend to think Amazon's reputation is overstated. Some teams definitely have very high operational loads, but in general my hours have been comparable to friends in similar tech companies and certainly less than friends in industries like medicine, management consulting, etc. It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - krapp 9y ago
    >It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are. With a company as large and complex as Amazon, many things can be relative, but if you work as an engineer or programmer at Amazon, chances are that conversation doesn't apply to you, or at least, that it applies less to you than to others.
  - naturalgradient 9y ago
    Well compensated? Amazon pays significantly below other mega cap tech companies, and as a PhD student in machine learning with a lot of friends interning and applying for jobs I can confidently say Amazon is nobody's first choice due to low salaries and working conditions. I'd rather say I am amazed they get anyone great working for them because it really is clearly and painfully obvious that almost everyone would rather work for Google, Facebook or Microsoft regarding machine learning. Have first hand knowledge of salaries. Amazon offers 30-50% less than other top tech companies for machine learning. There is literally no silver lining or upside as far as I can tell. In that context, it does not matter if Amazon pays more than <other job> in <other industry> or treats employees better than <other company> in <other industry>.
    - ctvo 9y ago
      Every measurable I've seen has Amazon very close to total compensation for similar levels. The real differences are in perks and vesting schedule (theirs is notoriously bad - 5%, 15%, 40%, 40% I think) It's hard to make a case that they underpay by 50%, have horrific working hours yet still have / retain an engineering workforce that's talented enough to deliver consistently.
    - Analog24 9y ago
      This is selection bias. You have first hand knowledge of what Amazon offers new graduates with little or no industry experience (and yes, PhD students fall into this category). The compensation for more experienced employees is substantially higher.
      - naturalgradient 9y ago
        "The compensation for more experienced employees is substantially higher" Citation needed. Higher than compensation for experienced employees at Google/Facebook? I am not even disputing Amazon pays more later, I am saying Amazon never pays top tier AND treats employees badly AND has no perks or particular benefits to make up for it, so nobody who has the option (that I know of) wants to work there.
  - marssaxman 9y ago
    It certainly sounds like a sweatshop in the descriptions I've heard from friends who work there, or have worked there in the past, compared to the experiences I and others have had in other large tech companies. I can only think of three people I know who have stuck it out at Amazon for more than two years. The egregiously back-loaded vesting structure is clearly built around the expectation of a high attrition rate, so I believe that the meat-grinder effect exists by design and not merely incompetence.
    - natalyarostova 9y ago
      When I get stressed I just open my stock vesting page and say "two more years." :^)
  - vadimberman 9y ago
    > It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are. Amazon employs over half a million people (https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-employees/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-...). I doubt engineers make more than 5-10%, someone has to mind the fulfillment centres, and the fully automatic robotic future is yet to arrive (https://qz.com/1039169/amazon-is-looking-to-hire-50000-people-in-one-day/ https://qz.com/1039169/amazon-is-looking-to-hire-50000-peopl...). The blue collars make up the bulk, and while the accounts of white-collar sweatshop conditions are argued about, nobody ever contradicted the accounts of blue-collar workers, and numerous complaints have been filed: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-settlement-could-pave-way-for-labor-unions/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-settlement-could-pave-wa....
- backtoyoujim 9y ago
  It is the inverse of Dunne's description of the free press; Amazon's job, it seems then, is to afflict the afflicted and comfort the comfortable.
hbosch 9y ago
I've heard there are signs in the elevators imploring employees to stay past 4 o'clock and enjoy the downtown amenities because everyone leaves at 4 and the downtown congestion gets pretty bad. I know engineers at Amazon, many of them work very comfortable hours.
tj-teej 9y ago
"Amazon's hours" - I think this notion is misguided. Just like every tech company; if you have good working habits, and can push back when given too much work (having a good manager helps), you can have a great career at Amazon. I work at Amazon and the best employees, the ones who get promotions and deliver great work typically work 9-5 hours. I'm sure it varies between teams but I'm in year three of being a SDE and I would recommend Amazon highly.
numismatex 9y ago
Yep, if you can't pivot and get into IT, data, streamlining and automating you're doomed. Walmart vs Mom and Pop shops is a great example of that. My family's business has been stuck in that rut for the 20 years that I've worked in the IT and marketing sectors. Very little growth, tons of untapped potential.

vadimberman 9y ago

An insightful comment that had to be made - I wonder why people downvoted it. Indeed, Amazon is probably the best and the worst about the modern tech: an ambitious leader, who manages to create paradigm shifts in areas where he is not a subject matter expert; and a sweatshop-like environment where the low ranking employees are treated like oompah loompahs.

GabrielF00 9y ago
As an Amazon employee, I tend to think Amazon's reputation is overstated. Some teams definitely have very high operational loads, but in general my hours have been comparable to friends in similar tech companies and certainly less than friends in industries like medicine, management consulting, etc. It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- krapp 9y ago
  >It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are. With a company as large and complex as Amazon, many things can be relative, but if you work as an engineer or programmer at Amazon, chances are that conversation doesn't apply to you, or at least, that it applies less to you than to others.
- naturalgradient 9y ago
  Well compensated? Amazon pays significantly below other mega cap tech companies, and as a PhD student in machine learning with a lot of friends interning and applying for jobs I can confidently say Amazon is nobody's first choice due to low salaries and working conditions. I'd rather say I am amazed they get anyone great working for them because it really is clearly and painfully obvious that almost everyone would rather work for Google, Facebook or Microsoft regarding machine learning. Have first hand knowledge of salaries. Amazon offers 30-50% less than other top tech companies for machine learning. There is literally no silver lining or upside as far as I can tell. In that context, it does not matter if Amazon pays more than <other job> in <other industry> or treats employees better than <other company> in <other industry>.
  - ctvo 9y ago
    Every measurable I've seen has Amazon very close to total compensation for similar levels. The real differences are in perks and vesting schedule (theirs is notoriously bad - 5%, 15%, 40%, 40% I think) It's hard to make a case that they underpay by 50%, have horrific working hours yet still have / retain an engineering workforce that's talented enough to deliver consistently.
  - Analog24 9y ago
    This is selection bias. You have first hand knowledge of what Amazon offers new graduates with little or no industry experience (and yes, PhD students fall into this category). The compensation for more experienced employees is substantially higher.
    - naturalgradient 9y ago
      "The compensation for more experienced employees is substantially higher" Citation needed. Higher than compensation for experienced employees at Google/Facebook? I am not even disputing Amazon pays more later, I am saying Amazon never pays top tier AND treats employees badly AND has no perks or particular benefits to make up for it, so nobody who has the option (that I know of) wants to work there.
- marssaxman 9y ago
  It certainly sounds like a sweatshop in the descriptions I've heard from friends who work there, or have worked there in the past, compared to the experiences I and others have had in other large tech companies. I can only think of three people I know who have stuck it out at Amazon for more than two years. The egregiously back-loaded vesting structure is clearly built around the expectation of a high attrition rate, so I believe that the meat-grinder effect exists by design and not merely incompetence.
  - natalyarostova 9y ago
    When I get stressed I just open my stock vesting page and say "two more years." :^)
- vadimberman 9y ago
  > It's very strange to describe Amazon (at least engineering roles) as a sweatshop considering how well compensated employees are. Amazon employs over half a million people (https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-employees/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-...). I doubt engineers make more than 5-10%, someone has to mind the fulfillment centres, and the fully automatic robotic future is yet to arrive (https://qz.com/1039169/amazon-is-looking-to-hire-50000-people-in-one-day/ https://qz.com/1039169/amazon-is-looking-to-hire-50000-peopl...). The blue collars make up the bulk, and while the accounts of white-collar sweatshop conditions are argued about, nobody ever contradicted the accounts of blue-collar workers, and numerous complaints have been filed: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-settlement-could-pave-way-for-labor-unions/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-settlement-could-pave-wa....
backtoyoujim 9y ago
It is the inverse of Dunne's description of the free press; Amazon's job, it seems then, is to afflict the afflicted and comfort the comfortable.

hbosch 9y ago

I've heard there are signs in the elevators imploring employees to stay past 4 o'clock and enjoy the downtown amenities because everyone leaves at 4 and the downtown congestion gets pretty bad. I know engineers at Amazon, many of them work very comfortable hours.

tj-teej 9y ago

"Amazon's hours" - I think this notion is misguided. Just like every tech company; if you have good working habits, and can push back when given too much work (having a good manager helps), you can have a great career at Amazon. I work at Amazon and the best employees, the ones who get promotions and deliver great work typically work 9-5 hours. I'm sure it varies between teams but I'm in year three of being a SDE and I would recommend Amazon highly.

numismatex 9y ago

Yep, if you can't pivot and get into IT, data, streamlining and automating you're doomed. Walmart vs Mom and Pop shops is a great example of that. My family's business has been stuck in that rut for the 20 years that I've worked in the IT and marketing sectors. Very little growth, tons of untapped potential.