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Nice history of money printing machines. Very nice and very easy FPGA application back then, just 2 sha256 pipes. Is there something worth pursuing nowadays fo

by lnsru 9y ago

Nice history of money printing machines. Very nice and very easy FPGA application back then, just 2 sha256 pipes. Is there something worth pursuing nowadays for FPGAs? Machine learning?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
simias 9y ago
FPGAs are worth it for anything that's too fast for software and is too niche for an ASIC. In my experience they are very popular for "pro tools" which are too specialized and don't have a large enough volume to justify creating an ASIC and are so expensive that the price of the BoM is not really a concern. For instance I work on products that do a lot of video processing on FPGAs (way too high bandwidth for software, too specialized for an ASIC). Now if you look at consumer electronics you obviously won't find many FPGAs. Too expensive, too power hungry, too costly and at large scales ASICs are a better match.
- abakker 9y ago
  Bernie Meyers of IBM once told me that he believed FPGA would be the future of Moore's law. he felt strongly that they provided a performance and flexibility tradeoff that made them ideal for using in virtually all servers as coprocessors for certain functions. The fact that the FPGA code can be audited was a plus as well.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    You can audit the FPGA code but good luck auditing the bitstream and those tools are all closed. Even for a small FPGA this would be quite a task.
  - simias 9y ago
    I'm curious about what Intel will do now that they own Altera. Maybe they'll be able to push FPGA technology into mainstream CPUs.
    - lnsru 9y ago
      Not sure about economics, but separate PCIe card with FPGA and it’s own storage is not that hard to build. Such setup could accelerate big data operations for sure.
  - jjoonathan 9y ago
    FPGAs start from far, far behind on the performance end though (by a factor of several dozen). FPGA vendors compete to shift as much as they can out of configurable logic and into lithographically-defined IP blocks because of this severe disadvantage. A modern FPGA will be strewn with hardwired serial interfaces, memory controllers, CPU cores, and the like. Taking advantage of these is almost always a gigantic performance win, and that's assuming the functionality they provide is even possible in configurable logic (e.g. try implementing a 32Gbps serial port using only configurable 500MHz logic). FPGAs don't trend towards openness and you have to get a 100x win from their flexibility to break even on performance.
- jjoonathan 9y ago
  I've never actually priced out an application where FPGAs were competitive on raw compute power -- GPUs have always smoked them for the tasks I was interested in, and not by a small margin. We only ever used them because they were "hardware engineer duct-tape" -- they let us talk to chips, network, and system busses at high bandwidth / pin count. Real time pipelines were a bonus but memory and compute were so much cheaper on computers that buffers + overprovisioning were a much more attractive real time solution wherever the logistics weren't prohibitive. Often they were, though, forcing us to use FPGAs for compute even though they weren't particularly good at it. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is a more general truth and that in many applications where FPGAs are touted as compute accelerators they were actually chosen to minimize the length of the critical real-time data path rather than to do more computation for fewer dollars.
- jjrh 9y ago
  It's surprising how many places FPGA's show up. I picked up a used black magic pci capture card that had a xilinx on it. It's not a mass consumer product but I am guessing they still sell a good number of them. People seem to forget that much of the allure with FPGA's is the 'Field programmable' part - where you can fix bugs and upgrade hardware after it's shipped.
znt 9y ago
High Frequency Trading. They have been on the rise for last couple of years.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
vel0city 9y ago
I've heard Microsoft was deploying them like highly programmable dynamic network switches/adapters for Azure and also some applications for Bing. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/09/programmable-chips-turning-azure-into-a-supercomputing-powerhouse/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/09/progr...
dejv 9y ago
FPGAs are used in all of the mid to high end test equipment: things like signal generators, digital multimeters, spectrum analysers, osciloscopes and such.
Yizahi 9y ago
We have been developing and selling FPGA based QAM modulators for DOCSIS and video for last 2 decades but currently all major companies are slowly moving from specialized hardware to software solutions with bare minimum of custom hardware. But some devices still retain FPGAs. All legacy devices sold in tens of thousands also may require support from FPGA expert. Multiple solutions use specialized Broadcom chips that are half way between ASIC and FPGA. FPGAs are expensive by themselves, expensive to implement in your solution, very hot, relatively slow and require rare expertise from developers. But they have one feature that beats everything - they can be patched in production.

by lnsru 9y ago

Nice history of money printing machines. Very nice and very easy FPGA application back then, just 2 sha256 pipes. Is there something worth pursuing nowadays for FPGAs? Machine learning?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

simias 9y ago

FPGAs are worth it for anything that's too fast for software and is too niche for an ASIC. In my experience they are very popular for "pro tools" which are too specialized and don't have a large enough volume to justify creating an ASIC and are so expensive that the price of the BoM is not really a concern. For instance I work on products that do a lot of video processing on FPGAs (way too high bandwidth for software, too specialized for an ASIC). Now if you look at consumer electronics you obviously won't find many FPGAs. Too expensive, too power hungry, too costly and at large scales ASICs are a better match.

abakker 9y ago
Bernie Meyers of IBM once told me that he believed FPGA would be the future of Moore's law. he felt strongly that they provided a performance and flexibility tradeoff that made them ideal for using in virtually all servers as coprocessors for certain functions. The fact that the FPGA code can be audited was a plus as well.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  You can audit the FPGA code but good luck auditing the bitstream and those tools are all closed. Even for a small FPGA this would be quite a task.
- simias 9y ago
  I'm curious about what Intel will do now that they own Altera. Maybe they'll be able to push FPGA technology into mainstream CPUs.
  - lnsru 9y ago
    Not sure about economics, but separate PCIe card with FPGA and it’s own storage is not that hard to build. Such setup could accelerate big data operations for sure.
- jjoonathan 9y ago
  FPGAs start from far, far behind on the performance end though (by a factor of several dozen). FPGA vendors compete to shift as much as they can out of configurable logic and into lithographically-defined IP blocks because of this severe disadvantage. A modern FPGA will be strewn with hardwired serial interfaces, memory controllers, CPU cores, and the like. Taking advantage of these is almost always a gigantic performance win, and that's assuming the functionality they provide is even possible in configurable logic (e.g. try implementing a 32Gbps serial port using only configurable 500MHz logic). FPGAs don't trend towards openness and you have to get a 100x win from their flexibility to break even on performance.
jjoonathan 9y ago
I've never actually priced out an application where FPGAs were competitive on raw compute power -- GPUs have always smoked them for the tasks I was interested in, and not by a small margin. We only ever used them because they were "hardware engineer duct-tape" -- they let us talk to chips, network, and system busses at high bandwidth / pin count. Real time pipelines were a bonus but memory and compute were so much cheaper on computers that buffers + overprovisioning were a much more attractive real time solution wherever the logistics weren't prohibitive. Often they were, though, forcing us to use FPGAs for compute even though they weren't particularly good at it. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is a more general truth and that in many applications where FPGAs are touted as compute accelerators they were actually chosen to minimize the length of the critical real-time data path rather than to do more computation for fewer dollars.
jjrh 9y ago
It's surprising how many places FPGA's show up. I picked up a used black magic pci capture card that had a xilinx on it. It's not a mass consumer product but I am guessing they still sell a good number of them. People seem to forget that much of the allure with FPGA's is the 'Field programmable' part - where you can fix bugs and upgrade hardware after it's shipped.

znt 9y ago

High Frequency Trading. They have been on the rise for last couple of years.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

vel0city 9y ago

I've heard Microsoft was deploying them like highly programmable dynamic network switches/adapters for Azure and also some applications for Bing. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/09/programmable-chips-turning-azure-into-a-supercomputing-powerhouse/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/09/progr...

dejv 9y ago

FPGAs are used in all of the mid to high end test equipment: things like signal generators, digital multimeters, spectrum analysers, osciloscopes and such.

Yizahi 9y ago

We have been developing and selling FPGA based QAM modulators for DOCSIS and video for last 2 decades but currently all major companies are slowly moving from specialized hardware to software solutions with bare minimum of custom hardware. But some devices still retain FPGAs. All legacy devices sold in tens of thousands also may require support from FPGA expert. Multiple solutions use specialized Broadcom chips that are half way between ASIC and FPGA. FPGAs are expensive by themselves, expensive to implement in your solution, very hot, relatively slow and require rare expertise from developers. But they have one feature that beats everything - they can be patched in production.