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Want to stop avoidance? Make proper laws. If it's legal (even through lobbying), then it is legal. And frankly I don't see why you shouldn't if you legally can.

Want to stop avoidance? Make proper laws. If it's legal (even through lobbying), then it is legal. And frankly I don't see why you shouldn't if you legally can. But to each their own views on this. You know who can stop avoidance? Politicians. They need to take responsibility. Feel free to shame multinationals or HNWIs for not paying taxes, but at the end of the day avoidance is only possible because politicians (or their advisors) make shoddy laws that aren't well thought out. Tax avoidance is essentially nothing more than understanding the law and framework you are operating in well, and finding a way to place income outside of the application of the law. So make better laws -- that's the only thing that can stop (excessive) tax avoidance. As long as politicians and don't put in a significant effort to close loopholes, I don't have any issue with tax avoidance.

matthewmacleod 9y ago
I can't agree with this enough. Expecting profit-motivated companies to voluntarily choose to pay more tax than they have to is fundamentally doomed to failure. One of the powers of the free market is to encourage the elimination of inefficiency and waste—not that it's perfect at that—and we can't expect to both have our cake and eat it, in that sense. I strongly agree that many companies should be contributing more to the state for the services that they use. But the way to do that is though robust and clear taxation frameworks, not some kind of general social pressure to pay an arbitrary, 'acceptable' amount of tax.
- charlesdm 9y ago
  Yes, I agree they're not paying enough, and should be paying more. But that will only happen when laws are changed.
- TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
  You can't have a robust and clear taxation framework in a plutocracy, because government is owned by the rich and run for the benefit of the rich. And they're hardly likely to support legislation that forces them to pay more tax. (Even if some are, there will always be a powerful lobbying effort agains any such move.) The economic and political rhetoric around "freedom", "taxation is bad because government is bad", and so on is a propaganda exercise. It isn't something that appeared spontaneously as a self-evident social truth. The more time I spend finding out about the history of political though in the US, the more I realise that the dominant narrative is the language and thinking of the hyper-rich, generated and maintained entirely for their benefit.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  A related problem is that international stage is a market by itself. Nations compete for the business of large corporations. Which leads to creation of ridiculous tax exemptions and loopholes.
  - charlesdm 9y ago
    Countries can't have it both ways. You can't hate legal avoidance, while at the same time trying to steal tax revenue from your neighbour with similar tax incentives.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      They can, and they do. Nothing in nature forces countries to be ethically consistent.
rectang 9y ago
> shoddy laws that aren't well thought out The preservation of these loopholes is not accidental -- they are deliberately left there for avoiders to take advantage of in exchange for political donations. The two groups work together in a corrupt and unethical partnership, while the populace can only watch from the sidelines fuming.
- literallycancer 9y ago
  Start a political party and fix it.
  - rectang 9y ago
    My activity in this realm has been to contribute to open source software, both as an author and as an administrator. I see it as a win-win-win for workers (the developers who write the code), their employers (who invest in open source as a superior product), and the software industry and society at large (through increased productivity and a better model for collaboration).
    - literallycancer 9y ago
      Anyone can benefit from OSS, corrupt individuals included. I'm not sure if that kind of action can help improve legislation or decrease the number of loopholes.
      - rectang 9y ago
        What, you were serious when you demanded that I personally fix the world? I'm still doing quite a bit and making the best use of my talents: way more than enough effort to call the facile critique of "start a political party".
        literallycancer 9y ago
        Yes, I'm serious. All too many people just claim the system is broken and nothing can be done to fix it. Understanding how it works and fixing it can and does work. Can't speak for the US, but in Europe, it certainly can work.
kuschku 9y ago
> If it's legal (even through lobbying), then it is legal. But it's not legal. At least in theory, in most of continental european law the spirit of the law stands above the letter of the law, and just because you found a technicality does not make it legal.
sooheon 9y ago
The politicians will never bite the hand that feeds. The mega rich both write the laws and benefit from them, this does not excuse the behavior morally, only makes it legal on paper (which, apparently is enough for some of you).
- charlesdm 9y ago
  But who is at fault here then? You can blame the wealthy all you want, but it would not be possible without the cooperation of politicians that are elected by the people.
  - rectang 9y ago
    Both parties are at fault, obviously. They are collaborators in a corrupt system which ordinary citizens do not have access to.
  - sooheon 9y ago
    > elected by the people Elections lie on a spectrum from fair to sham, and the greater the influence of the powerful, the more it resembles a sham.
andrepd 9y ago
It's interesting because you pretty much said it in your first paragraph: it's legal, through lobbying. Make proper laws? How, if it's the companies benefiting from the current state of affairs writing those laws? How, if the government isn't serving us the people, but the interests of those that can grease the palms of the persons in charge?

matthewmacleod 9y ago

I can't agree with this enough. Expecting profit-motivated companies to voluntarily choose to pay more tax than they have to is fundamentally doomed to failure. One of the powers of the free market is to encourage the elimination of inefficiency and waste—not that it's perfect at that—and we can't expect to both have our cake and eat it, in that sense. I strongly agree that many companies should be contributing more to the state for the services that they use. But the way to do that is though robust and clear taxation frameworks, not some kind of general social pressure to pay an arbitrary, 'acceptable' amount of tax.

charlesdm 9y ago
Yes, I agree they're not paying enough, and should be paying more. But that will only happen when laws are changed.
TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
You can't have a robust and clear taxation framework in a plutocracy, because government is owned by the rich and run for the benefit of the rich. And they're hardly likely to support legislation that forces them to pay more tax. (Even if some are, there will always be a powerful lobbying effort agains any such move.) The economic and political rhetoric around "freedom", "taxation is bad because government is bad", and so on is a propaganda exercise. It isn't something that appeared spontaneously as a self-evident social truth. The more time I spend finding out about the history of political though in the US, the more I realise that the dominant narrative is the language and thinking of the hyper-rich, generated and maintained entirely for their benefit.
TeMPOraL 9y ago
A related problem is that international stage is a market by itself. Nations compete for the business of large corporations. Which leads to creation of ridiculous tax exemptions and loopholes.
- charlesdm 9y ago
  Countries can't have it both ways. You can't hate legal avoidance, while at the same time trying to steal tax revenue from your neighbour with similar tax incentives.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    They can, and they do. Nothing in nature forces countries to be ethically consistent.

rectang 9y ago

> shoddy laws that aren't well thought out The preservation of these loopholes is not accidental -- they are deliberately left there for avoiders to take advantage of in exchange for political donations. The two groups work together in a corrupt and unethical partnership, while the populace can only watch from the sidelines fuming.

literallycancer 9y ago
Start a political party and fix it.
- rectang 9y ago
  My activity in this realm has been to contribute to open source software, both as an author and as an administrator. I see it as a win-win-win for workers (the developers who write the code), their employers (who invest in open source as a superior product), and the software industry and society at large (through increased productivity and a better model for collaboration).
  - literallycancer 9y ago
    Anyone can benefit from OSS, corrupt individuals included. I'm not sure if that kind of action can help improve legislation or decrease the number of loopholes.
    - rectang 9y ago
      What, you were serious when you demanded that I personally fix the world? I'm still doing quite a bit and making the best use of my talents: way more than enough effort to call the facile critique of "start a political party".
      - literallycancer 9y ago
        Yes, I'm serious. All too many people just claim the system is broken and nothing can be done to fix it. Understanding how it works and fixing it can and does work. Can't speak for the US, but in Europe, it certainly can work.

kuschku 9y ago

> If it's legal (even through lobbying), then it is legal. But it's not legal. At least in theory, in most of continental european law the spirit of the law stands above the letter of the law, and just because you found a technicality does not make it legal.

sooheon 9y ago

The politicians will never bite the hand that feeds. The mega rich both write the laws and benefit from them, this does not excuse the behavior morally, only makes it legal on paper (which, apparently is enough for some of you).

charlesdm 9y ago
But who is at fault here then? You can blame the wealthy all you want, but it would not be possible without the cooperation of politicians that are elected by the people.
- rectang 9y ago
  Both parties are at fault, obviously. They are collaborators in a corrupt system which ordinary citizens do not have access to.
- sooheon 9y ago
  > elected by the people Elections lie on a spectrum from fair to sham, and the greater the influence of the powerful, the more it resembles a sham.

andrepd 9y ago

It's interesting because you pretty much said it in your first paragraph: it's legal, through lobbying. Make proper laws? How, if it's the companies benefiting from the current state of affairs writing those laws? How, if the government isn't serving us the people, but the interests of those that can grease the palms of the persons in charge?