7 ms·

I've never seen a clear answer about what a cis white male is supposed to do about their privilege. Should they give all their money to the poor? Should they sh

I've never seen a clear answer about what a cis white male is supposed to do about their privilege. Should they give all their money to the poor? Should they shoot themselves to remove the blight of the Western World, it's democracy, relative tolerance, and ability to reflect upon itself and improve? Should they just say, "You're right and I'm thankful"? The regressive-left makes no sense in their stance.

geofft 9y ago
I'm not sure if I count as a member of the regressive left, but I'll try to give a clear answer anyway: be aware of it. The usual phrase is "check your privilege," not "eliminate your privilege" or even "use your privilege". Be aware that there are things that others perceive as hardships that aren't hardships to you, or approaches to life that you can take that others can't take without social (or legal) penalty, or whatever, and show some compassion - certainly do not say "Well, if I could do it, why couldn't you." You are slightly more likely to get the benefit of the doubt from potential employers, or police who find you in a place they don't like, or conservative religious-political leaders suggesting policies, or whatever, than you would if you weren't a cis white man. You also don't have the life experience of not being a cis white men, which certainly doesn't mean that you can't understand other people, it just means you can't extrapolate your own experiences and reconstruct what life is like for them from first principles. That's it. If you want to give all your money to the poor, great, don't let me stop you. If you want to improve Western civilization and make life better for the poor (and the rich too, perhaps), also great, don't let me stop you either. If you want to improve Western civilization for people who look like you but not for others, well, at least stop for a second and realize that's what you're doing before you do it. (And if you continue nonetheless, there's probably room for criticism, but that criticism is not fundamentally about how you merely have privilege.)
- virmundi 9y ago
  I'm replying to you since you have the longest reply (and it's thought out too). The regressive left is the SJW that tells the Norwegians they can't use their own letters because Nazi decided to co-op their culture back in the day [1]. You have individuals like Gazi [2] running around saying that white people need to pay reparations even though most white people in the country descend from immigrants that arrived after the civil war therefore they never owned slaves. We've gotten to the point that some on the regressive left don't think that it's even possible for a white man to empathize or even understand the language used to describe their situations. If enough feel like communication has broken down to this level, they have and will call for war. My problem is that people that say, "check your privilege" use it to shut down dialogue. We're getting into identity politics. This never, ever ends well for anyone. I'm all for compassion. I'm not for the hypocrisy of using race and guilt as cudgels against supposed political enemies. I'm not for college campuses insulating themselves with their own group think to the point that it's an arrest-able offense to hand out the Constitution, the very document that defines that we are all equal in the sight of the law, to students on Constitution Day by a student of the college [3]. I absolutely abhor the continued press for ignorance about the very historical facts at hand in which the white man, and only the white man, was to blame or profited from slavery [4]. 1 - https://sputniknews.com/europe/201801311061237928-norway-nazi-attacking-viking/ https://sputniknews.com/europe/201801311061237928-norway-naz... 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tanz1IxVpVA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tanz1IxVpVA 3 - http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/21/students-arrested-constitutions-michigan http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/21/students-arrested-constitu... 4 - https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ppzevg/hey-v12n5 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ppzevg/hey-v12n5
  - geofft 9y ago
    > The regressive left is the SJW that tells the Norwegians they can't use their own letters because Nazi decided to co-op their culture back in the day [1]. Ehhhh. I'm of Indian descent, and I am perfectly comfortable with the modern inability to use the swastika in international contexts, where you don't have a culture where people expect the pre-Nazi meaning of the swastika. "They banned an up-arrow" just ... doesn't seem like something worth getting upset about? Presumably if the logo accidentally looked like a penis, they'd change that too, but that's hardly a sign of identity politics or anything. > You have individuals like Gazi [2] running around saying that white people need to pay reparations even though most white people in the country descend from immigrants that arrived after the civil war therefore they never owned slaves. I have no idea who this person is, or how genuine they are. Every political viewpoint has extremists and trolls and uninformed folks (I don't know if this person fits in one of these categories, but I certainly don't know that they don't), and many of those people are on YouTube. A much better case for reparations, which includes arguments about why white people who arrived in the US after slavery still benefited unfairly from organized oppression of black people, can be found in, say, Ta-Nehisi Coates' "The Case for Reparations:" https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-cas... > it's an arrest-able offense to hand out the Constitution, the very document that defines that we are all equal in the sight of the law, to students on Constitution Day by a student of the college [3] As far as I can tell from the reporting, these students were protesting a "free speech zone" policy on campus, right? I'm certainly not about to endorse "free speech zones," but it seems pretty clear that the motivation for the arrest was not that they were handing out Constitutions, they simply chose to hand out Constitutions because they knew they'd get favorable news headlines like this. > I absolutely abhor the continued press for ignorance about the very historical facts at hand in which the white man, and only the white man, was to blame or profited from slavery [4]. The fact that your source is from VICE, which is regularly accused (possibly correctly!) of being left-biased, doesn't do much to convince me that these facts are being hidden on the left. Certainly I've never heard anyone on the left make a reasoned argument that only white men were to blame or ever profited from any slavery in history.
    - 9y ago
- Red_Tarsius 9y ago
  People are not children who need to be always reminded of their own privilege. We already know it.
gumby 9y ago
There is no need to do anything “about” it. Simply recognize it and have empathy for those who don’t. No need for self flagellation and no need to avoid taking advantage of opportunities you might have. But don’t assume the entire world operates that way and take that into account when making decisions. Everyone reading this is privileged to some degree (for example I didn’t spend my childhood in war zones as my parents did) and disadvantaged to some degree (there are things I like to do that for health reasons I no longer can). It’s no big deal, moral or otherwise, simply life. But if you have empathy for others you will perhaps be less likely to say, “well I did it, so why can’t everyone else do it too?”
- Red_Tarsius 9y ago
  > It’s no big deal, moral or otherwise, simply life. It's a big deal since people exploit the privilege talk to manipulate you. It usually boils down to getting your money, job position or your vote. See the Healing from Toxic Whiteness webinar and other thinly veiled indulgences sold to nice, gullible men. But they shouldn't be ashamed for their own identity.
  - gumby 9y ago
    I'm not really sure what point you are making. Just because something can be exploited doesn't mean it's bad. Free speech, automobiles, secure communications...all can be used for good or bad. Sure, there exist people will exploit anything for their own ends, perhaps in this case either guilt-tripping or validating a person's existence. For example that's the whole basis of nationalism. My point is that every one of us is born, without our control, with a set of advantages and disadvantages, basically an enormous set of D20-rolls. Nobody has any moral superiority or inferiority based on that set of advantages and disadvantages. But you, and society, derive an ethical benefit when you can dispassionately recognize how your set of advantages/disadvantages helps and hurts you especially when those impacts are implicit. Here's a trivial example of how this awareness can help you: I can walk around fine so why should I want businesses to take up space with access ramps instead of staircases and street kerbs? Well when I was on crutches I suddenly needed those ramps. If I hadn't been attuned to the invisible advantage I had of being able to walk around I probably wouldn't have supported this kind of upgrade. Another, more diffuse example: that smart kid in a poor neighborhood, if she has an opportunity to go to a good school might develop the cure for the disease you have. You'll never know either way.
GuiA 9y ago
If you are legitimately curious and open minded about digging more into this topic, I highly recommend the recently published book "So You Want to Talk About Race" by Ijeoma Oluo. https://www.amazon.com/You-Want-Talk-About-Race/dp/1580056776 https://www.amazon.com/You-Want-Talk-About-Race/dp/158005677...

geofft 9y ago

I'm not sure if I count as a member of the regressive left, but I'll try to give a clear answer anyway: be aware of it. The usual phrase is "check your privilege," not "eliminate your privilege" or even "use your privilege". Be aware that there are things that others perceive as hardships that aren't hardships to you, or approaches to life that you can take that others can't take without social (or legal) penalty, or whatever, and show some compassion - certainly do not say "Well, if I could do it, why couldn't you." You are slightly more likely to get the benefit of the doubt from potential employers, or police who find you in a place they don't like, or conservative religious-political leaders suggesting policies, or whatever, than you would if you weren't a cis white man. You also don't have the life experience of not being a cis white men, which certainly doesn't mean that you can't understand other people, it just means you can't extrapolate your own experiences and reconstruct what life is like for them from first principles. That's it. If you want to give all your money to the poor, great, don't let me stop you. If you want to improve Western civilization and make life better for the poor (and the rich too, perhaps), also great, don't let me stop you either. If you want to improve Western civilization for people who look like you but not for others, well, at least stop for a second and realize that's what you're doing before you do it. (And if you continue nonetheless, there's probably room for criticism, but that criticism is not fundamentally about how you merely have privilege.)

virmundi 9y ago
I'm replying to you since you have the longest reply (and it's thought out too). The regressive left is the SJW that tells the Norwegians they can't use their own letters because Nazi decided to co-op their culture back in the day [1]. You have individuals like Gazi [2] running around saying that white people need to pay reparations even though most white people in the country descend from immigrants that arrived after the civil war therefore they never owned slaves. We've gotten to the point that some on the regressive left don't think that it's even possible for a white man to empathize or even understand the language used to describe their situations. If enough feel like communication has broken down to this level, they have and will call for war. My problem is that people that say, "check your privilege" use it to shut down dialogue. We're getting into identity politics. This never, ever ends well for anyone. I'm all for compassion. I'm not for the hypocrisy of using race and guilt as cudgels against supposed political enemies. I'm not for college campuses insulating themselves with their own group think to the point that it's an arrest-able offense to hand out the Constitution, the very document that defines that we are all equal in the sight of the law, to students on Constitution Day by a student of the college [3]. I absolutely abhor the continued press for ignorance about the very historical facts at hand in which the white man, and only the white man, was to blame or profited from slavery [4]. 1 - https://sputniknews.com/europe/201801311061237928-norway-nazi-attacking-viking/ https://sputniknews.com/europe/201801311061237928-norway-naz... 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tanz1IxVpVA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tanz1IxVpVA 3 - http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/21/students-arrested-constitutions-michigan http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/21/students-arrested-constitu... 4 - https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ppzevg/hey-v12n5 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ppzevg/hey-v12n5
- geofft 9y ago
  > The regressive left is the SJW that tells the Norwegians they can't use their own letters because Nazi decided to co-op their culture back in the day [1]. Ehhhh. I'm of Indian descent, and I am perfectly comfortable with the modern inability to use the swastika in international contexts, where you don't have a culture where people expect the pre-Nazi meaning of the swastika. "They banned an up-arrow" just ... doesn't seem like something worth getting upset about? Presumably if the logo accidentally looked like a penis, they'd change that too, but that's hardly a sign of identity politics or anything. > You have individuals like Gazi [2] running around saying that white people need to pay reparations even though most white people in the country descend from immigrants that arrived after the civil war therefore they never owned slaves. I have no idea who this person is, or how genuine they are. Every political viewpoint has extremists and trolls and uninformed folks (I don't know if this person fits in one of these categories, but I certainly don't know that they don't), and many of those people are on YouTube. A much better case for reparations, which includes arguments about why white people who arrived in the US after slavery still benefited unfairly from organized oppression of black people, can be found in, say, Ta-Nehisi Coates' "The Case for Reparations:" https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-cas... > it's an arrest-able offense to hand out the Constitution, the very document that defines that we are all equal in the sight of the law, to students on Constitution Day by a student of the college [3] As far as I can tell from the reporting, these students were protesting a "free speech zone" policy on campus, right? I'm certainly not about to endorse "free speech zones," but it seems pretty clear that the motivation for the arrest was not that they were handing out Constitutions, they simply chose to hand out Constitutions because they knew they'd get favorable news headlines like this. > I absolutely abhor the continued press for ignorance about the very historical facts at hand in which the white man, and only the white man, was to blame or profited from slavery [4]. The fact that your source is from VICE, which is regularly accused (possibly correctly!) of being left-biased, doesn't do much to convince me that these facts are being hidden on the left. Certainly I've never heard anyone on the left make a reasoned argument that only white men were to blame or ever profited from any slavery in history.
  - 9y ago
Red_Tarsius 9y ago
People are not children who need to be always reminded of their own privilege. We already know it.

gumby 9y ago

There is no need to do anything “about” it. Simply recognize it and have empathy for those who don’t. No need for self flagellation and no need to avoid taking advantage of opportunities you might have. But don’t assume the entire world operates that way and take that into account when making decisions. Everyone reading this is privileged to some degree (for example I didn’t spend my childhood in war zones as my parents did) and disadvantaged to some degree (there are things I like to do that for health reasons I no longer can). It’s no big deal, moral or otherwise, simply life. But if you have empathy for others you will perhaps be less likely to say, “well I did it, so why can’t everyone else do it too?”

Red_Tarsius 9y ago
> It’s no big deal, moral or otherwise, simply life. It's a big deal since people exploit the privilege talk to manipulate you. It usually boils down to getting your money, job position or your vote. See the Healing from Toxic Whiteness webinar and other thinly veiled indulgences sold to nice, gullible men. But they shouldn't be ashamed for their own identity.
- gumby 9y ago
  I'm not really sure what point you are making. Just because something can be exploited doesn't mean it's bad. Free speech, automobiles, secure communications...all can be used for good or bad. Sure, there exist people will exploit anything for their own ends, perhaps in this case either guilt-tripping or validating a person's existence. For example that's the whole basis of nationalism. My point is that every one of us is born, without our control, with a set of advantages and disadvantages, basically an enormous set of D20-rolls. Nobody has any moral superiority or inferiority based on that set of advantages and disadvantages. But you, and society, derive an ethical benefit when you can dispassionately recognize how your set of advantages/disadvantages helps and hurts you especially when those impacts are implicit. Here's a trivial example of how this awareness can help you: I can walk around fine so why should I want businesses to take up space with access ramps instead of staircases and street kerbs? Well when I was on crutches I suddenly needed those ramps. If I hadn't been attuned to the invisible advantage I had of being able to walk around I probably wouldn't have supported this kind of upgrade. Another, more diffuse example: that smart kid in a poor neighborhood, if she has an opportunity to go to a good school might develop the cure for the disease you have. You'll never know either way.

GuiA 9y ago

If you are legitimately curious and open minded about digging more into this topic, I highly recommend the recently published book "So You Want to Talk About Race" by Ijeoma Oluo. https://www.amazon.com/You-Want-Talk-About-Race/dp/1580056776 https://www.amazon.com/You-Want-Talk-About-Race/dp/158005677...