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> I often wonder why no one's mother didn't fill the these people's mouth with dawn liquid soap and slap the child silly, but then I realize that honesty wasn'

> I often wonder why no one's mother didn't fill the these people's mouth with dawn liquid soap and slap the child silly, but then I realize that honesty wasn't a life or death situation for them. What? This is just child abuse. Please expand on what circumstances in which this considered OK?

lev99 9y ago
In my mind child abuse is hurting a child for selfish reasons and discipline is punishment to cause behavioral changes. Some cultures allow for different severity of punishments. However the intent of the parent is very important when labeling child abuse.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Intent is important, but if there is intent to inflict pain, either as a means or an ends, it is abuse. Now, it's true that there are further meaningful intent-based distinctions you can make within the broad category of abuse, but that's somewhat beside the point.
  - zeveb 9y ago
    > if there is intent to inflict pain, either as a means or an ends, it is abuse. That doesn't sound correct to me. If a little get (well below the age of reason) reaches for the pretty red glowing burner atop the stove, you slap away his hand because the small pain of getting his hand slapped will serve to make a second attempt less likely, and the small pain is far less severe and more transient than the great and lasting pain of a nasty burn. Enjoying inflicting pain is definitely abuse, but inflicting it to prevent worse pain and suffering is IMHO not.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > . If a little get (well below the age of reason) reaches for the pretty red glowing burner atop the stove, you slap away his hand because the small pain of getting his hand slapped will serve to make a second attempt less likely No, you don't; if they are well below the age of reason, they are well below the age at which they will connect the hit with the reason for it. That's why you don't let kids that young around a stove in the first place, and if they do get loose around one, you restrain and remove them. This may involve incidental pain, but not intentional, instrumental pain.
      - randyrand 9y ago
        You don't need reason in order to stop doing things that hurt you. Even simple animals learn to avoid painful things.
    - brazzledazzle 9y ago
      While there are certainly abusers out there that relish it, (likely in most of the worst cases) I think you'll find that many who commit undeniable abuse don't do it for any sort of joy. They would describe their motivations as being good or an unfortunate necessity–sometimes even altruistic. Abuse is a complicated thing and many who mete it out were, or are, themselves victims of abuse. Not trying to detract from your overall point, just thought it was worth noting.
    - DrScump 9y ago
      There was a genuine tragedy[0] just over a month ago in NYC from such an unchecked child who "had a history of playing with the burners and turning them on." The family of the firestarter all escaped but placed others at heightened risk of death by leaving their doors open as they fled. [0] https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/12/29/new-york-city-mayor-12-dead-in-bronx-apartment-building-fire-including-a-baby/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/12/29/new-york-city-mayor-1...
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montecarl 9y ago
While this used to be a not uncommon form of punishment, it is now typically used as an empty threat ("someone ought to wash your mouth out with soap") or to criticize someone's foul mouth.
dizzystar 9y ago
Bullshit for some people is the same as lying, where lying is binary and not shaded. Lying is a great way to end up on the evening news.

lev99 9y ago

In my mind child abuse is hurting a child for selfish reasons and discipline is punishment to cause behavioral changes. Some cultures allow for different severity of punishments. However the intent of the parent is very important when labeling child abuse.

dragonwriter 9y ago
Intent is important, but if there is intent to inflict pain, either as a means or an ends, it is abuse. Now, it's true that there are further meaningful intent-based distinctions you can make within the broad category of abuse, but that's somewhat beside the point.
- zeveb 9y ago
  > if there is intent to inflict pain, either as a means or an ends, it is abuse. That doesn't sound correct to me. If a little get (well below the age of reason) reaches for the pretty red glowing burner atop the stove, you slap away his hand because the small pain of getting his hand slapped will serve to make a second attempt less likely, and the small pain is far less severe and more transient than the great and lasting pain of a nasty burn. Enjoying inflicting pain is definitely abuse, but inflicting it to prevent worse pain and suffering is IMHO not.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > . If a little get (well below the age of reason) reaches for the pretty red glowing burner atop the stove, you slap away his hand because the small pain of getting his hand slapped will serve to make a second attempt less likely No, you don't; if they are well below the age of reason, they are well below the age at which they will connect the hit with the reason for it. That's why you don't let kids that young around a stove in the first place, and if they do get loose around one, you restrain and remove them. This may involve incidental pain, but not intentional, instrumental pain.
    - randyrand 9y ago
      You don't need reason in order to stop doing things that hurt you. Even simple animals learn to avoid painful things.
  - brazzledazzle 9y ago
    While there are certainly abusers out there that relish it, (likely in most of the worst cases) I think you'll find that many who commit undeniable abuse don't do it for any sort of joy. They would describe their motivations as being good or an unfortunate necessity–sometimes even altruistic. Abuse is a complicated thing and many who mete it out were, or are, themselves victims of abuse. Not trying to detract from your overall point, just thought it was worth noting.
  - DrScump 9y ago
    There was a genuine tragedy[0] just over a month ago in NYC from such an unchecked child who "had a history of playing with the burners and turning them on." The family of the firestarter all escaped but placed others at heightened risk of death by leaving their doors open as they fled. [0] https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/12/29/new-york-city-mayor-12-dead-in-bronx-apartment-building-fire-including-a-baby/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/12/29/new-york-city-mayor-1...
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montecarl 9y ago

While this used to be a not uncommon form of punishment, it is now typically used as an empty threat ("someone ought to wash your mouth out with soap") or to criticize someone's foul mouth.

dizzystar 9y ago

Bullshit for some people is the same as lying, where lying is binary and not shaded. Lying is a great way to end up on the evening news.