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Not the author of the parent comment, but my family shifted from solidly middle-class to members of the 1% over the course of a few years in the early 2000s (my

Not the author of the parent comment, but my family shifted from solidly middle-class to members of the 1% over the course of a few years in the early 2000s (my teenage years) as our family business became significantly more successful. Here are some of the things I've experienced that strike me as examples of that: - Talking specifically about money (how much high-ticket items specifically cost, how much anyone specifically makes) is gauche. - Depending on the group and the location, there are functionally dress codes - you show up to brunch in sweats and sneakers and everyone else is in polos and boat shoes, you "dress up" in a shirt and khakis, everyone else is wearing a blazer and slacks, you put on a Macy's suit for a formal event and everyone else is wearing Tom Ford or Armani. - What you do for leisure can be a fraught discussion - we eventually started traveling more, but I've met people who talked casually about summering in Ibiza or the Hamptons (and who used "summer" as a verb), or who have seasonal homes. "I stayed home and played X-Box" as an explanation for what you did on vacation earns a side-eye. - What and how you eat, although that one has relaxed a little bit over the last few years as street food has been gentrified and made trendier.

stcredzero 9y ago
A lot of that is covered in: Class: A Guide Through the American Status System by Paul Fussell Link: http://a.co/406UQB1 http://a.co/406UQB1
- trowawee 9y ago
  I read that back in high school. I'd be interested to see how it holds up today, given the massive increase in overall inequality and the hollowing out of the middle class in the US.
  - segmondy 9y ago
    Still holds up. Some of the social signaling has changed, but the book still holds up quite well from what I recall the last time I read it.
- dmitrygr 9y ago
  A little dated, but still an amazing book!
cryptoz 9y ago
That all sounds so miserable. I think I'd rather stay middle class than deal with that stuff.
- trowawee 9y ago
  I mean, there are social codes in any group. It's not unique to rich people, it's just how humans are. There are middle class equivalents to some of these. Growing up, we didn't shop at Nordstrom, but we certainly didn't shop at Goodwill. In most places, there are "middle class" grocery stores and clothing shops. It's just that, if you don't shift groups, you usually don't notice the rules and structures because you've internalized them so much. "What the hell is water?"[1] and all that. [1]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122178211966454607 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122178211966454607
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Yeah, that's true. I can remember my mom acting like I'd completely lost my mind when I first discovered cheap jeans at Walmart and bought some, but there really wasn't much appreciable difference from the more expensive ones I usually got.
- coldtea 9y ago
  You have that as middle class too. Try liking somethings considered as "white trash" hobbies/entertainment/activities, or as "posh" ones as a middle class person. (E.g. a middle class high schooler who likes the opera instead of say, Hip Hop or whatever. Or wear some Comme De Garcons clothes around middle class dressed people, or stuff you bought at the Dollar Store...)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- dizzystar 9y ago
  To my mind, watering and feeding your lawn so that it is nice and green and exactly 1 1/2" tall all year round is a solid middle-class indicator. I find it kind of strange to spend that time and money on doing something that has little to no productive value. Not throwing daggers or anything, but every strata has things that are a bit strange about them. Yes, I know that upper class does that too, unless you are in the hills where there really isn't any lawn to take care of, etc.
emodendroket 9y ago
> - What and how you eat, although that one has relaxed a little bit over the last few years as street food has been gentrified and made trendier. I'm so damn sick of all this stuff. It's like nobody can just make a normal dish without putting some insipid "twist" on it anymore.
- trowawee 9y ago
  Really? I grew up in the Midwest where chicken fried rice from the local Chinese place was about as exotic as it got, and our standard meals were some form of overcooked meat, potatoes, and a token green. The evolution of the food and restaurant scenes in the US is one of the things I'm pretty happy about. It can definitely be handled poorly, but for the most part I think it's been a positive.
  - kbenson 9y ago
    I think what's being referred to is less about more options, and more about combining options in a new way so you can up sell it. Getting access to your first Thai, Indian etc. restaurant is amazing. Suffering through someone's new tex-mex/filipino/Eskimo fusion because friends want to try it is often not.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Variety is great. I love access to various ethnic cuisines. What I'm sick of is how you can't get normal fries because they are all sweet potato fries with truffle oil and similar gimmicks.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      Go to lower or higher class restaurants if you want food that is not optimized for buzzword density.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        That's my preference but I'm not always choosing.
kbenson 9y ago
The reverse of this can be true too. Growing up, we weren't rich, but did better than most my friends families. Downplaying that your largish (4 kids) family flies across the country for a week plus vacation once a year and not talking about money or new stuff stuff becomes a thing then too. Partly that was probably me being overly sensitive, but group dynamics and expectations are tricky things, and this was only a mild difference. Edit: I should note this was in northern California, where people generally do not vacation on the east coast because of both local attractions and a high cost of living that makes saving for vacations much harder to do. We happened to have some family in the Carolinas which was part of our reason.
brandonmenc 9y ago
> Talking specifically about money (how much high-ticket items specifically cost, how much anyone specifically makes) is gauche. This is not just a rich people rule. I grew up solidly middle class, and you could hear a pin drop if you asked someone in the room how much they were paid or how much that engagement ring cost.
- coldtea 9y ago
  That would be upper middle class. (Not to mention in the US even coal miners would describe themselves as "middle class" these days, nobody is "working class" anymore).
  - svachalek 9y ago
    Maybe a regional thing then? Or as you hinted you're talking about a different sort of middle class. I grew up in a large family with a single government income, went to school with a lot of kids that were poorer than me (and some richer of course), and so on, and I can't remember a situation where it was just "ok" to talk about anything that made someone's finances explicit.
  - biztos 9y ago
    Not where I come from (rural Northern California). We were pretty much lower middle class (sometimes lower-lower) , had friends who were better off and friends who were much worse off, and nobody really talked about money openly. In my family I always figured it was WASP reticence, but now that you mention it I think it was something broader. Maybe: people with money don't need to talk about it, people without money are embarrassed to talk about it, and if you're somewhere in the middle you don't want to reveal your hand.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - brandonmenc 9y ago
    > That would be upper middle class. My father poured molten metal in a foundry as a married 19 year old.
rayiner 9y ago
The clothing stuff works the other way too. My parents were always well off, but we’re immigrants. I know to wear a nice suit to a client meeting. But I’m completely at a loss when it comes to all the intermediate levels of clothing. Like, what do you wear when it would be weird to wear a business suit but improper to wear jeans?
- jdietrich 9y ago
  Take a look in Brooks Brothers or Banana Republic. You'll see the standard upper-middle-class smart-casual wardrobe - chinos and cords, oxford shirts, v-neck sweaters, sport coats and brogues. There's some nuance, but it's not rocket science.
  - hkmurakami 9y ago
    imo the social attire is much more difficult to parse than the business attire.
    - sedachv 9y ago
      It is much more regional as well. Nantucket reds might be acceptable casual attire in places on the East coast; here in California they come off as the clown pants that they really are.
- setr 9y ago
  Sweater or loose shirt in a darker color (navy, dark green, etc), black pants, black simple shoes/boots is almost always a safe bet, at least in america. Comfy enough for casual settings, proper enough for more official settings, depending on how you carry it. Clothing is usually pretty easy once you find the staples; after that its your behavior that makes it. To actually look good though, you need to understand the group's values enough to move beyond the basics. And of course, you need to learn to have an opinion on clothing, to understand (and deny) other's opinions. At the very least, when some chucklefuck gives you a look for eating fries by hand, you should be able to defend your position
austinjp 9y ago
> Talking specifically about money Yes, and I'd extend this to talking about where your money comes from, as well as how you spend it. Don't expect a straight or detailed answer to "What do you do (for work)?" or "Where did you buy that?" Asking those questions immediately marks you.

stcredzero 9y ago

A lot of that is covered in: Class: A Guide Through the American Status System by Paul Fussell Link: http://a.co/406UQB1 http://a.co/406UQB1

trowawee 9y ago
I read that back in high school. I'd be interested to see how it holds up today, given the massive increase in overall inequality and the hollowing out of the middle class in the US.
- segmondy 9y ago
  Still holds up. Some of the social signaling has changed, but the book still holds up quite well from what I recall the last time I read it.
dmitrygr 9y ago
A little dated, but still an amazing book!

cryptoz 9y ago

That all sounds so miserable. I think I'd rather stay middle class than deal with that stuff.

trowawee 9y ago
I mean, there are social codes in any group. It's not unique to rich people, it's just how humans are. There are middle class equivalents to some of these. Growing up, we didn't shop at Nordstrom, but we certainly didn't shop at Goodwill. In most places, there are "middle class" grocery stores and clothing shops. It's just that, if you don't shift groups, you usually don't notice the rules and structures because you've internalized them so much. "What the hell is water?"[1] and all that. [1]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122178211966454607 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122178211966454607
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Yeah, that's true. I can remember my mom acting like I'd completely lost my mind when I first discovered cheap jeans at Walmart and bought some, but there really wasn't much appreciable difference from the more expensive ones I usually got.
coldtea 9y ago
You have that as middle class too. Try liking somethings considered as "white trash" hobbies/entertainment/activities, or as "posh" ones as a middle class person. (E.g. a middle class high schooler who likes the opera instead of say, Hip Hop or whatever. Or wear some Comme De Garcons clothes around middle class dressed people, or stuff you bought at the Dollar Store...)
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
dizzystar 9y ago
To my mind, watering and feeding your lawn so that it is nice and green and exactly 1 1/2" tall all year round is a solid middle-class indicator. I find it kind of strange to spend that time and money on doing something that has little to no productive value. Not throwing daggers or anything, but every strata has things that are a bit strange about them. Yes, I know that upper class does that too, unless you are in the hills where there really isn't any lawn to take care of, etc.

emodendroket 9y ago

> - What and how you eat, although that one has relaxed a little bit over the last few years as street food has been gentrified and made trendier. I'm so damn sick of all this stuff. It's like nobody can just make a normal dish without putting some insipid "twist" on it anymore.

trowawee 9y ago
Really? I grew up in the Midwest where chicken fried rice from the local Chinese place was about as exotic as it got, and our standard meals were some form of overcooked meat, potatoes, and a token green. The evolution of the food and restaurant scenes in the US is one of the things I'm pretty happy about. It can definitely be handled poorly, but for the most part I think it's been a positive.
- kbenson 9y ago
  I think what's being referred to is less about more options, and more about combining options in a new way so you can up sell it. Getting access to your first Thai, Indian etc. restaurant is amazing. Suffering through someone's new tex-mex/filipino/Eskimo fusion because friends want to try it is often not.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Variety is great. I love access to various ethnic cuisines. What I'm sick of is how you can't get normal fries because they are all sweet potato fries with truffle oil and similar gimmicks.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    Go to lower or higher class restaurants if you want food that is not optimized for buzzword density.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      That's my preference but I'm not always choosing.

kbenson 9y ago

The reverse of this can be true too. Growing up, we weren't rich, but did better than most my friends families. Downplaying that your largish (4 kids) family flies across the country for a week plus vacation once a year and not talking about money or new stuff stuff becomes a thing then too. Partly that was probably me being overly sensitive, but group dynamics and expectations are tricky things, and this was only a mild difference. Edit: I should note this was in northern California, where people generally do not vacation on the east coast because of both local attractions and a high cost of living that makes saving for vacations much harder to do. We happened to have some family in the Carolinas which was part of our reason.

brandonmenc 9y ago

> Talking specifically about money (how much high-ticket items specifically cost, how much anyone specifically makes) is gauche. This is not just a rich people rule. I grew up solidly middle class, and you could hear a pin drop if you asked someone in the room how much they were paid or how much that engagement ring cost.

coldtea 9y ago
That would be upper middle class. (Not to mention in the US even coal miners would describe themselves as "middle class" these days, nobody is "working class" anymore).
- svachalek 9y ago
  Maybe a regional thing then? Or as you hinted you're talking about a different sort of middle class. I grew up in a large family with a single government income, went to school with a lot of kids that were poorer than me (and some richer of course), and so on, and I can't remember a situation where it was just "ok" to talk about anything that made someone's finances explicit.
- biztos 9y ago
  Not where I come from (rural Northern California). We were pretty much lower middle class (sometimes lower-lower) , had friends who were better off and friends who were much worse off, and nobody really talked about money openly. In my family I always figured it was WASP reticence, but now that you mention it I think it was something broader. Maybe: people with money don't need to talk about it, people without money are embarrassed to talk about it, and if you're somewhere in the middle you don't want to reveal your hand.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- brandonmenc 9y ago
  > That would be upper middle class. My father poured molten metal in a foundry as a married 19 year old.

rayiner 9y ago

The clothing stuff works the other way too. My parents were always well off, but we’re immigrants. I know to wear a nice suit to a client meeting. But I’m completely at a loss when it comes to all the intermediate levels of clothing. Like, what do you wear when it would be weird to wear a business suit but improper to wear jeans?

jdietrich 9y ago
Take a look in Brooks Brothers or Banana Republic. You'll see the standard upper-middle-class smart-casual wardrobe - chinos and cords, oxford shirts, v-neck sweaters, sport coats and brogues. There's some nuance, but it's not rocket science.
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  imo the social attire is much more difficult to parse than the business attire.
  - sedachv 9y ago
    It is much more regional as well. Nantucket reds might be acceptable casual attire in places on the East coast; here in California they come off as the clown pants that they really are.
setr 9y ago
Sweater or loose shirt in a darker color (navy, dark green, etc), black pants, black simple shoes/boots is almost always a safe bet, at least in america. Comfy enough for casual settings, proper enough for more official settings, depending on how you carry it. Clothing is usually pretty easy once you find the staples; after that its your behavior that makes it. To actually look good though, you need to understand the group's values enough to move beyond the basics. And of course, you need to learn to have an opinion on clothing, to understand (and deny) other's opinions. At the very least, when some chucklefuck gives you a look for eating fries by hand, you should be able to defend your position

austinjp 9y ago

> Talking specifically about money Yes, and I'd extend this to talking about where your money comes from, as well as how you spend it. Don't expect a straight or detailed answer to "What do you do (for work)?" or "Where did you buy that?" Asking those questions immediately marks you.