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I spent a summer in NYC a few years ago. While living in NYC I did get a flavor of higher class living with some roommates of mine. It really is true that there
by gorpomon 9y ago
I spent a summer in NYC a few years ago. While living in NYC I did get a flavor of higher class living with some roommates of mine. It really is true that there are unspoken codes and mores to follow, and it was uncomfortable when I didn't.
However, this is one issue that's hard to put solely on the foot of the rich or a broader system. Passing in many avenues, not just by class, is really deciding you want to be there and what the terms of your presence will be. It felt at times like trying to get into a club, if you look like you want in, you don't get in. If you don't want in, they let you in. You have to learn to look like you don't want it.
I think rather than teach young children how to hold spoons, or castigate the rich for yet another divide they were born into, probably we should just teach improv skills, confidence skills and encourage people to engage in open dialogue with others. Some solutions don't require us dismantling a system.
If the next time a rich person gives you an askance look and you immediately ask them to explain themselves, guess what, you just equalized yourself with them socially without having to learn which fork to use first.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago> It really is true that there are unspoken codes and mores to follow, and it was uncomfortable when I didn't Any examples spring to mind?
- ggg9990 9y agoSpending $10,000 on a flatscreen TV: low class. Spending $10,000 on a pair of speakers: high class.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- jnordwick 9y agoTotally backwards. You'll find more expensive shoes in Harlem than Astoria.
- ggg9990 9y agoI meant home speakers, not car speakers.
- maxerickson 9y agoAnd as we all know, shoes have amazing frequency response.
- emodendroket 9y agoI only wear Bass.
- aje403 9y agoWho picks Astoria to spend $10000 on clothes
- vostok 9y agoIt's unlcear to me which of the two is considered "higher class". I think Astoria is slightly wealthier than Harlem in recent history, but neither is known for for having a particularly moneyed population. Today, I know more wealthy people in Harlem than in Astoria.
- mancerayder 9y agoBut are they smart sneakers with voice control?
- nugget 9y agoI thought about this comment for awhile because I have unassailably high class friends who have spent $10k+ on TVs and sneakers. I think the key is they just do it with confidence. I jokingly made fun of my friend's sneaker collection but he just laughed it off without any hint of concern. Once you understand all the different social queues then you can start to act however you want as long as you have bulletproof self confidence. Taken to extreme lengths you might end up being referred to as eccentric but these days it's almost a desirable label.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- emodendroket 9y agoI am really amazed that almost every response to this sees speakers (i.e., audio equipment) and then says something about sneakers (i.e., athletic footwear).
- dieterrams 9y agoYes, I read it as 'sneakers' as well. Pretty sure it's because the word if prefaced with "pair of", which is much more commonly used with 'sneakers'.
- stcredzero 9y agoDon't waste your money on a new set of speakers / You get more mileage from a cheap pair of sneakers / Next phase, new wave, dance craze, anyways / It's still rock and roll to me -- Billy Joel Also: "Where have you been hidin' out lately, honey? You can't dress trashy till you spend a lot of money"
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- saget 9y agoHow you dress is very important. Knowing enough about current events and having your own, thoughtful opinion about them. Knowing a number of books and using them in conversation. Rules on when to be blunt are different. Never order a burger at a restaurant. I could go on but it's a hard thing to summarize. (source: was middle/lower class, now have many 1% friends)
- gf263 9y ago>never order a burger at a restaurant Whelp there goes my dreams of hanging with rich people
- macNchz 9y agoAu contraire, just stop by JG Melon on Manhattan's Upper East Side, longtime favorite burger joint of wealthy prep school types (and Mike Bloomberg).
- RmDen 9y agooh wow.. brings back memories... back in the 90s use to go there for dinner on Thursday and then to Webster Hall for Psychedelic Thursdays (free entry with train badge/button) They had good burgers and chef salad was good as well... P. J. Clarke's is another one where you could get decent burgers.....
- gf263 9y agoGreat, I’m moving to Manhattan in a month!
- pb 9y agoWhat's wrong with burgers? Expensive restaurants often have really good burgers.
- tytytytytytytyt 9y agoAnd Ikea has some really good furniture one could assemble themselves, too...
- tway7239 9y agoDining out is the usual suspect, and one I have run into many times as a middle class guy that hangs out with the rich and very rich occassionally: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmGemNT7urY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmGemNT7urY The only thing this scene from the wire fails to capture is that once you learn the mannerisms, how you should look, how you should act to not feel out of place - you then need to learn how and what to speak about. It's hard to hold a conversation about Mr. Smith's recent trip to the maldives, his new non-profit business venture, and roger federer's latest australian open win if you're working a 9-5 and vacationing once a year in california. So in many cases you can look and act the part, but really you can't speak the part. Then at the end of the meal, you're relying on them to pay for that $150 bottle of wine they ordered.
- trowawee 9y agoNot the author of the parent comment, but my family shifted from solidly middle-class to members of the 1% over the course of a few years in the early 2000s (my teenage years) as our family business became significantly more successful. Here are some of the things I've experienced that strike me as examples of that: - Talking specifically about money (how much high-ticket items specifically cost, how much anyone specifically makes) is gauche. - Depending on the group and the location, there are functionally dress codes - you show up to brunch in sweats and sneakers and everyone else is in polos and boat shoes, you "dress up" in a shirt and khakis, everyone else is wearing a blazer and slacks, you put on a Macy's suit for a formal event and everyone else is wearing Tom Ford or Armani. - What you do for leisure can be a fraught discussion - we eventually started traveling more, but I've met people who talked casually about summering in Ibiza or the Hamptons (and who used "summer" as a verb), or who have seasonal homes. "I stayed home and played X-Box" as an explanation for what you did on vacation earns a side-eye. - What and how you eat, although that one has relaxed a little bit over the last few years as street food has been gentrified and made trendier.
- stcredzero 9y agoA lot of that is covered in: Class: A Guide Through the American Status System by Paul Fussell Link: http://a.co/406UQB1 http://a.co/406UQB1
- trowawee 9y agoI read that back in high school. I'd be interested to see how it holds up today, given the massive increase in overall inequality and the hollowing out of the middle class in the US.
- segmondy 9y agoStill holds up. Some of the social signaling has changed, but the book still holds up quite well from what I recall the last time I read it.
- dmitrygr 9y ago
- rm999 9y agoI can't speak for OP, but a big one is how to deal with the check at a restaurant. For people who are lower/lower middle class (or at the least not financially secure), you pass around a receipt and take turns deciding who owes what. In the middle/upper middle class, there is an unspoken rule the check gets split, and anything else is awkward. In the upper class, oftentimes one person will pay for the check and it's awkward to object.
- Retric 9y agoThat's a symptom of the value of time vs. money. If you're going to resent someone getting an extra 10$ worth of food you split the check based on costs. If 10$ is effectively meaningless but 200$ is not. Split it per person, it's fairly close and reasonably fast. If 200$ is effectively meaningless, rotate who pays it's faster. This can blend into: If 2,000$ if effectively meaningless, or you want to show off, who pays may not relate to who paid last time.
- lucozade 9y agoI'm not sure the time thing is particularly true but you're absolutely spot on with it being a value of money thing. And you're spot on with your characterisation as to how it works.
- ryandrake 9y agoI’ll never forget how odd and uncomfortable it felt the first time I went out to lunch with co-workers (at my first “real” job) and this “split the check” thing happened. I always thought it just seemed so much fairer for everyone to figure out what they ate and pay for that. Kind of a culture shock.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- charlesdm 9y agoIs it? Not co-workers, but I always find it (extremely) annoying that after having a great meal with friends that some of them insist on counting item per item how much they owe at the end of the evening. Yes, I might have had an extra glass of wine. Or you might have had an extra side dish or a G&T. Let's either just split the bill, or I'll pay today and you'll get the next.
- gadders 9y agoBeing English is a minefield. Here's an old list but some of it still definitely applies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English
- ryanwaggoner 9y agoI highly recommend this book, which is dated but holds up pretty well. I found it funny, sad, but overall just brutal in its characterizations of class in America. It's only available in print too: https://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253/ https://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/... My overall takeaways from the book were: 1. Class is correlated with income, but not identical. 2. Class is so ingrained in so many areas of our lives that it's almost impossible to change. You might as well just be comfortable with the class level you grew up in, because you'll probably always be there. 3. A big reason for #2: caring about your class in the first place is middle class. The more you care about where you fall in the class hierarchy, the more middle and upper-middle class you are. Lower class folks don't really care (and may even take a certain amount of "pride" in being lower / working class), and upper class people have nothing to prove to anyone. But the book goes into excruciating detail about the way people dress, speak, decorate their homes, what jobs they have, cars they drive, etc, etc.
- gt_ 9y agoAnd the hack is found in #3. If you’re in the know but out of care, you’ve hacked the system.
- SimbaOnSteroids 9y agoI was under the impression that the only important part was that you didn't appear to care.
- AnimalMuppet 9y agoNot appearing to care helps you play the social game. Not caring makes you comfortable in your own shoes. In my view, the second is more important.
- losteverything 9y agoThis. Especially coining of top out of sight-ers and bottom out of sight-ers
- 9y ago
- gt_ 9y agoThe codes change regularly and different social cliques or professional verticals distinguish themselves by them, so they can be hard to Define. When in doubt: don’t be a tourist. Know how to pronounce the items on the international restaurant menu before trying to order them. If you don’t know, don’t ask out loud. Whisper into your rich friend’s ear so as to not embarrass them. Don’t speak about the unspoken codes either, and if you must, do it privately with your rich friends and go along with their answers. Don’t not have enough money for something unless you express clearly that you are too good for it. Not needing it bad enough is not an acceptable excuse. When others share stories of their extravagant lives, hold a straight face. This is normal stuff for you, remember? You already know what that’s like. Speak of politics as though identity issues(D) or working hard for your money(R) are more important than class issues. Remember that class issues are not something you are particularly affected by. You can acknowledge they matter but insist identity issues are more important. This helps wealthy folk feel both compassionate, concerned and comfortable with their wealth. I’m not taking a side here, only giving proven survival tips. Your family is kind of more like cartoon characters. You just share jokes with them and nothing else, unless something tragic happens or if they invite you on a nice vacation. Don’t discuss any other relations with your family members. Fashion: In the least, if you wore it in high school, you don’t wear it now. Music, art: Don’t ask who this is. You’ve heard it or you are too busy to care. Like parent said, these can be overridden with confidence and flair but that takes some acclimating and strategy.
- emodendroket 9y agoI think this level of timidity would make you stand out more.
- gt_ 9y agoI did not suggest being timid. The whole thing is a structure of symbols of timidity; an abstraction of wealth begetting confidence. So, it is certainly a matter of walking the ridge between symbolic timidity and actual timidity.
- emodendroket 9y ago
- aje403 9y agoI'm in my mid 20s. I don't really know any of the ultra-wealthy, but I have some friends who are low execs in IB, Management Consulting, lawyers, have been to virtually every club in the city by now. How to dress when you enter a top club or SoHo House, who to go with, where to go on vacation with what friends to present an image of your wealth, "who did YOU go to the Hamptons with last weekend?" - people present an image to build a network - it's more complex than that, but everything the article is stating is true and may give you an idea.
- charlesdm 9y agoThose people are most likely also up to their eyes in debt, just trying to show off and keeping up with the "true" upper class. Most people in their 20s working jobs won't have substantial wealth, unless they were born into money.
- aje403 9y agoSome of what you’re saying does occur but that’s just a part of it. Come to nyc, there’s no shortage of IB associates, lawyer associates, and MC principals making 300k+ in their late 20s with a straight path upward Edit: Not talking about the guy who rents a $10k apartment he can't afford to trick people into thinking he's rich. Talking more about people buying into social strata they can reasonably or paying fealty to those in higher strata to benefit their career. It is a thing out here.
- kelukelugames 9y ago300k is a mind blowing amount of money to most people, but it's also considered nothing to a lot of people. Though I'm impressed someone can make principal consultant in their 20s.
- aje403 9y agoThat's true - I'm just painting a picture. Same thing at most rungs of the ladder and I'm sure it happens in a similar way in many other places around the world - just the way it works. It's a different world than what most of the people on this site might see day to day - making big money in software requires a different set of soft skills to find success as I think most people on here would agree. The guy I had in mind was, I think, 29, german and I think working at BCG? Very polished. Had his fresh-to-the-city model girlfriend and threw great parties.
- losteverything 9y agoForbidden talk list Original Religion Sex Politics Money Addition 1 Hitler & the holocaust Abortion Child care Adult care Addition 2 Trump
- walshemj 9y agoIn the UK its still an unspoken rule don't wear brown (shoes) in town - work in the city and you will still be looked at oddly.
- jdtang13 9y agoHere are some examples: This entire comments section is extremely middle class. Including my own comment. But particularly all the questions.
- gorpomon 9y agoA few really stuck out to me. The biggest one was pouring wine. I remember a few times I poured it kind of off and I got that distinct look of class violation. Haggling about splitting checks also got those looks often, the lesson I learned there was that almost always, the party will want to split it evenly rather than do something as gauche as math, so rather than order less, order much more so you get a discount on your meal :-) I also spent some time in a small rich beach town, and from that time I remember how my switching to boat shoes seemed to instantly ingratiate me with some people. Also never mention how "cool" it is that someone has a jetski or nice boat, those things were just taken as statements of fact. To many people these might not seem like real mores or wealth signifiers. Maybe you think I was just over-sensitive. This whole article though, is about feelings, and certainly in those moments it seemed like everyone was certainly feeling something strongly.
- hkmurakami 9y agoHave the other person order first, then order the same number of courses and roughly the same price points.
- f33g91pv43232f 9y agoOr stop worrying about missing out or getting too much and just order what you actually want.
- dsfyu404ed 9y agoI generally agree with this. Stereotypes, glass ceilings and merit aside, ones ability to move up in the world is tied at least in part to their ability not be disagreeable (I specifically used a double negative there) among those who are already on top. If you're white, have dreads and whatever building you're in smells like a grow op or chewing tobacco gets its own line in your monthly budget don't expect your presence to be appreciated by the upper classes. Fitting in is less important than not not fitting in. It's just a fact of life one's life experience is so directly tied to wealth that the more percent above of below you a group is the harder it will be to not, be rejected by that group.
- oldcynic 9y ago> I think rather than teach young children how to hold spoons ... we should just teach improv skills I think there's an argument for a little of both, by way of giving them tools to fit in at multiple levels (classes, call it what you will). Then it's their choice to fit in or stand out as they feel best in the widest range of situations. Of course knowing which of 5 sets of cutlery is for what shouldn't actually matter much...
- InitialLastName 9y ago> Of course knowing which of 5 sets of cutlery is for what shouldn't actually matter much.. Outside in. If you can't tell, look at what your neighbors are using.
- rhizome 9y agoIf the next time a rich person gives you an askance look and you immediately ask them to explain themselves, guess what, you just equalized yourself with them socially without having to learn which fork to use first. Or you've shibboleth'ed yourself out by not already knowing what the askance look meant.
- tinymollusk 9y agoSure, but you were already outside the group because of your misuse of spoons. I have difficulty picking up the nuance of these small askance glances, so without asking, it's unlikely I'll ever pick up the shibboleth. Personally, I've always thought the only way to win is to not play the game. High class values have never really appealed to me, although I guess feel the hierarchy/status issue as much as anyone else.
- rhizome 9y agoNot playing the game is fine, and a classless life is enjoyed by many, but it's not how "you just equalized yourself with them socially."
- workthrowaway27 9y agoYou can't not play. Not playing just means losing faster because you don't know/don't care about the rules.
- sjg007 9y agoThis is the outsider play. It basically works by default if you’re a foreigner (aka an American in England) or vice versa. Americans can get away with it via improv or social ability sure... less so if there’s a language barrier.
- fossuser 9y agoIt's also a good source of comedy, pointing out little things like that and going into detail about them.