3 ms·

Don't put Baltimore on the rest of us.

by bitlax 9y ago

kerkeslager 9y ago
Is there a US city where cops who murder unarmed black men are convicted with any sort of regularity?
- weberc2 9y ago
  How many cities in the US have police who "murder unarmed black men" regularly to begin with? Of course if that number is small, then the number of cities who regularly convict them will be small. You can't take the small number of cities that regularly convict as evidence of a problem.
  - kerkeslager 9y ago
    Well-documented cases of cops murdering unarmed black men and not being convicted have occurred all over the United States. This isn't a Baltimore problem, it's a US problem.
    - weberc2 9y ago
      1. There are well-documented cases of cops murdering unarmed men and not being convicted. "unarmed black men" is a red herring, because there is no evidence that this happens disproportionately on a racial basis. 2. My claim was that there are not many cities with a trend of cops murdering unarmed black men, so your comment isn't a valid rebuttal, however true it may otherwise be.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > there is no evidence that this happens disproportionately on a racial basis. There's actually considerable evidence that adverse interactions with law enforcement of all kinds (and not just LE murder) are not evenly distributed by race. Whether that is a result of deliberate LE racism vs. other factors which contribute to such encounters being distributed disproportionately by race has more mixed evidence.
        weberc2 9y ago
        Nevertheless, all of the data on LE murder agree that there is no racial disparity in victimhood. We can and should collect better data, but "police disproportionately murder blacks" is not supported by the evidence.
        eksabajt 9y ago
        Do you have a citation for the claim that there is no racial disparity? Here's a ProPublica report that shows a staggering disparity: "Deadly Force in Black and White"(https://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white https://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and...)
        weberc2 9y ago
        I did a deep dive into the WashPo 2015 and 2016 datasets which are more both more recent and complete than the FBI datasource used by propublica. Further, you can actually inspect in detail the circumstances in which the shooting took place, including whether or not the deceased were armed.
      - kerkeslager 9y ago
        Your entire claim is a red herring, unless you're claiming it's somehow better that cops murder non-black people and get away with it. This is like the game where you can say a sentence where emphasis on different words changes the meaning, i.e. "I don't agree that cops murder black people" versus "I don't agree that cops murder black people." In text you can be ambiguous, and if anyone disagrees with your defense of cops, you just back off into the weird statistical claim about race that isn't that important. So I ask you: are you defending cops murdering people and getting away with it? If not, why are you posting? I suppose it's academically interesting if cops murder all the races evenly, but it sure comes across as if you're defending cops murdering people and getting away with it.
        weberc2 9y ago
        > Your entire claim is a red herring, unless you're claiming it's somehow better that cops murder non-black people and get away with it. It's not a red herring. The implication that "police murder blacks" is that there is a racist component in police murder, but the data show that this isn't the case, at least not in the last decade. I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether or not this is better or worse. > So I ask you: are you defending cops murdering people and getting away with it? If not, why are you posting? I suppose it's academically interesting if cops murder all the races evenly, but it sure comes across as if you're defending cops murdering people and getting away with it. No, of course I'm not defending murder. I'm posting because fixing problems requires properly understanding them. I understand that many people have no qualm with worsening the problems they purportedly care about so long as it lets them get a punch in against some group of people they dislike; however, that's not really my style.

Don't put Baltimore on the rest of us.

by bitlax 9y ago

Don't put Baltimore on the rest of us.

kerkeslager 9y ago

Is there a US city where cops who murder unarmed black men are convicted with any sort of regularity?

weberc2 9y ago
How many cities in the US have police who "murder unarmed black men" regularly to begin with? Of course if that number is small, then the number of cities who regularly convict them will be small. You can't take the small number of cities that regularly convict as evidence of a problem.
- kerkeslager 9y ago
  Well-documented cases of cops murdering unarmed black men and not being convicted have occurred all over the United States. This isn't a Baltimore problem, it's a US problem.
  - weberc2 9y ago
    1. There are well-documented cases of cops murdering unarmed men and not being convicted. "unarmed black men" is a red herring, because there is no evidence that this happens disproportionately on a racial basis. 2. My claim was that there are not many cities with a trend of cops murdering unarmed black men, so your comment isn't a valid rebuttal, however true it may otherwise be.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > there is no evidence that this happens disproportionately on a racial basis. There's actually considerable evidence that adverse interactions with law enforcement of all kinds (and not just LE murder) are not evenly distributed by race. Whether that is a result of deliberate LE racism vs. other factors which contribute to such encounters being distributed disproportionately by race has more mixed evidence.
      - weberc2 9y ago
        Nevertheless, all of the data on LE murder agree that there is no racial disparity in victimhood. We can and should collect better data, but "police disproportionately murder blacks" is not supported by the evidence.
        eksabajt 9y ago
        Do you have a citation for the claim that there is no racial disparity? Here's a ProPublica report that shows a staggering disparity: "Deadly Force in Black and White"(https://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white https://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and...)
        weberc2 9y ago
        I did a deep dive into the WashPo 2015 and 2016 datasets which are more both more recent and complete than the FBI datasource used by propublica. Further, you can actually inspect in detail the circumstances in which the shooting took place, including whether or not the deceased were armed.
    - kerkeslager 9y ago
      Your entire claim is a red herring, unless you're claiming it's somehow better that cops murder non-black people and get away with it. This is like the game where you can say a sentence where emphasis on different words changes the meaning, i.e. "I don't agree that cops murder black people" versus "I don't agree that cops murder black people." In text you can be ambiguous, and if anyone disagrees with your defense of cops, you just back off into the weird statistical claim about race that isn't that important. So I ask you: are you defending cops murdering people and getting away with it? If not, why are you posting? I suppose it's academically interesting if cops murder all the races evenly, but it sure comes across as if you're defending cops murdering people and getting away with it.
      - weberc2 9y ago
        > Your entire claim is a red herring, unless you're claiming it's somehow better that cops murder non-black people and get away with it. It's not a red herring. The implication that "police murder blacks" is that there is a racist component in police murder, but the data show that this isn't the case, at least not in the last decade. I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether or not this is better or worse. > So I ask you: are you defending cops murdering people and getting away with it? If not, why are you posting? I suppose it's academically interesting if cops murder all the races evenly, but it sure comes across as if you're defending cops murdering people and getting away with it. No, of course I'm not defending murder. I'm posting because fixing problems requires properly understanding them. I understand that many people have no qualm with worsening the problems they purportedly care about so long as it lets them get a punch in against some group of people they dislike; however, that's not really my style.