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Body cams on police and actual consequences for misconduct. Some of the videos of people (of all colors) being unlawfully murdered have led to absolutely zero c

Body cams on police and actual consequences for misconduct. Some of the videos of people (of all colors) being unlawfully murdered have led to absolutely zero consequence for those responsible. Those with authority granted by the public should have HIGHER accountability and more severe consequences, not be able to subvert them altogether. It's not difficult to imagine the level of misconduct that is likely occurring in the cases where no video evidence is even available. And while the racial component of police shootings has been portrayed in a way which differs sharply from the actual data on race/crime/police lethal force, there IS still some element of uncertainty in the exact figures. The fact that there is any uncertainty at all in police killings being reported correctly is absolutely INSANE to me. This is not an area where we can have sloppy data. If a government agent is responsible for the death of a citizen, it is unacceptable that we not have a very clear record of all surrounding circumstance.

richmarr 9y ago
Absolutely agree on both counts. Holding public office is a privilege that rightly should come with a different threshold of privacy/transparency. And yes, no nation is taking the issue of police conduct seriously if it's not even recording wrongful death consistently and reliably. Some colleagues ran a trial on body cameras and found improved metrics, particularly around stop-and-search. The success rate of stop and search increased, officers reported feeling safer. They also noted an increase in allegations but I don't think dug into that as much as they wanted to (it may be an area where the behaviour feedback loop was slow enough to need a longer study duration). http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/trial-results/measuring-the-impact-of-body-worn-video-cameras-on-police-behaviour-and-criminal-justice-outcomes/ http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/trial-results/measuring...
mathattack 9y ago
The price for this should be massive. Doing this once or twice corrupts the justice system and destroys public trust in police. This invites gangs to become the law and order. Look how that’s worked out in Chicago.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- guildwriter 9y ago
  What goes on in Chicago and its gangs goes far beyond the police and the indiscretions that go on there. Case in point: http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/October-2016/Chicago-Gangs/ http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/October-2016/Chic... Drill rap, the music of Chicago's gangs, is ultra violent and serves as a method of calling out other crews and taunting them into a response. Thanks to Youtube, Soundcloud, and social media the spread of this music is now easier than ever. The threats that come from this music are often followed up on. Why do they do it? As one rapper says: “If I wasn’t doing this, would you even be down here in the low incomes? Would you even care that I exist?” “You know, white people, Mexicans, bitches, those people don’t live the life, but they love hearing about it. People want the Chiraq stuff. They want a superthug ghetto man, and I’m giving that to them. I’m just playing my role.”
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Is that "Whataboutism?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
    - guildwriter 9y ago
      Er no. It's not. I'm not saying police conduct in Chicago isn't an issue. I'm saying that the issues of inner city Chicago are much larger than just police conduct. To properly understand the issue you need to consider all the angles.
      - Clubber 9y ago
        Yes, but Chicago seems to be a fairly unique place. Also, most of the police shooting incidents don't come out of Chicago. What are you trying to say by pointing out that gang violence is bad in Chicago?
DanBC 9y ago
> which differs sharply from the actual data on race/crime/police lethal force Can you show me the data set that breaks down police killings by race of the killed person please? Or can you even point me to the dataset that just lists all police killings?
- guildwriter 9y ago
  There is no good database. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shoo... This is probably the best there is that I know of and it only goes back 2-3 years. The federals don't have anything complete.
- icc97 9y ago
  I did some investigation based on the Washington Post data for Skeptics Stack Exchange [0]. There's a significant difference between black and white killings. [0]: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/39887/37853 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/39887/37853
  - ralusek 9y ago
    Look at the data from the data source used in that stack exchange. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shoo... white killed by police: 495 (49.5%) black killed by police: 259 (26.1%) hispanic killed by police: 172 (17.3%) other: 67 About 13% of the US population is black, and 12.5% is hispanic. Both groups ARE over-represented in police shootings, with black people being about 2x more likely to be killed than their population figure would suggest. Compared to the way this is portrayed in the news, however, I would suggest that these figures already run contrary to the narrative that this is primarily dictated on the basis of racist behavior by police. The fact that there are more white people killed by police annually ALONE (despite their larger representation in the population) is a fact that most people would be surprised to hear. What really offsets the data is once you begin to include racial statistics on crime. Obviously police officers aren't just taking individuals out of the population and random and killing them (isolated outliers not included), so it would be irresponsible to just compare the racial component of police shootings with population representation. This data, however, varies greatly by area. However, in urban environments in particular, the racial component in crime is enormous. In Chicago, for example 75.3% of homicide was committed by black people, 24.6% by hispanics, and 3.5% by white people. To expect equal representation in police shootings, given those crime statistics, would be completely insane. So the long story short is: given a straight comparison to population distributions, there is an overrepresentation of black/hispanic shootings by police. With the inclusion of racial participation in violent crime though, the motivation for police fatalities cannot responsibly be attributed to a racial motivation without a serious multivariate analysis.
ataturk 9y ago
I think your faith in body cameras is completely misplaced. What we should do instead is hold police to the exact same standards for self defense as the rest of the general public. That is, no more "qualified immunity." Also, the police should have to abide by all the same gun laws--if the state they live in has stupid laws, then everyone should be subject to all those stupid laws! No more "laws for thee but not for me" business anymore. No more machine guns unless NFA registered, which means only pre-1986 firearms for them. No more short-barreled rifles or shotguns unless properly registered. No more getting away with murders that any regular citizen would be jammed up for. Once the police start abiding by the laws, then I'll care what happens when they get themselves into a jam.
abandonliberty 9y ago
I agree with you in an ideal world. These concepts are obvious. Unfortunately, we don't see this implemented so I'm pretty sure that it isn't our timeline. The police are not here to protect you, but to ensure the functioning of society. This isn't pessimism; it's a fact of legal precedent - they have no obligation to protect any citizen [0]. Justice only happens when the crime unpunished would lead to undesirable destabilization of society. Sexual harassment was rampant in Hollywood for decades, only now that it threatens stability does it receive attention. Our ideals of justice and freedom only but tools and illusions to keep the gears of society turning. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
alexwilde 9y ago
I would add Education to the forefront of accountability. Police officer careers require no more education than a high school diploma/GED and the police academy, which is roughly 27 weeks. Imagine if being a police officer meant having a deep understanding of ethics, psychology (not just tactics) and law. Stop accepting any physically fit hothead off the street because they can be trained into the role. Lastly, as a citizen, be willing to pay more in taxes knowing that the person who pulled you over cares, is qualified, and will not shoot you and try to cover it up.
- threatofrain 9y ago
  Police have also gained the hard-fought-in-court prerogative to screen candidates on the basis of intelligence, excluding anyone unusual in any direction. It creates a monoculture as opposed to an ecology of diverse intellectualism.
- stmfreak 9y ago
  I don't think training on ethics is required, nor would it be sufficient if not accompanied by a substantial change in accountability. Today's police are virtually untouchable. They know it, and act accordingly.

richmarr 9y ago

Absolutely agree on both counts. Holding public office is a privilege that rightly should come with a different threshold of privacy/transparency. And yes, no nation is taking the issue of police conduct seriously if it's not even recording wrongful death consistently and reliably. Some colleagues ran a trial on body cameras and found improved metrics, particularly around stop-and-search. The success rate of stop and search increased, officers reported feeling safer. They also noted an increase in allegations but I don't think dug into that as much as they wanted to (it may be an area where the behaviour feedback loop was slow enough to need a longer study duration). http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/trial-results/measuring-the-impact-of-body-worn-video-cameras-on-police-behaviour-and-criminal-justice-outcomes/ http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/trial-results/measuring...

mathattack 9y ago

The price for this should be massive. Doing this once or twice corrupts the justice system and destroys public trust in police. This invites gangs to become the law and order. Look how that’s worked out in Chicago.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
guildwriter 9y ago
What goes on in Chicago and its gangs goes far beyond the police and the indiscretions that go on there. Case in point: http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/October-2016/Chicago-Gangs/ http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/October-2016/Chic... Drill rap, the music of Chicago's gangs, is ultra violent and serves as a method of calling out other crews and taunting them into a response. Thanks to Youtube, Soundcloud, and social media the spread of this music is now easier than ever. The threats that come from this music are often followed up on. Why do they do it? As one rapper says: “If I wasn’t doing this, would you even be down here in the low incomes? Would you even care that I exist?” “You know, white people, Mexicans, bitches, those people don’t live the life, but they love hearing about it. People want the Chiraq stuff. They want a superthug ghetto man, and I’m giving that to them. I’m just playing my role.”
- Clubber 9y ago
  Is that "Whataboutism?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
  - guildwriter 9y ago
    Er no. It's not. I'm not saying police conduct in Chicago isn't an issue. I'm saying that the issues of inner city Chicago are much larger than just police conduct. To properly understand the issue you need to consider all the angles.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      Yes, but Chicago seems to be a fairly unique place. Also, most of the police shooting incidents don't come out of Chicago. What are you trying to say by pointing out that gang violence is bad in Chicago?

DanBC 9y ago

> which differs sharply from the actual data on race/crime/police lethal force Can you show me the data set that breaks down police killings by race of the killed person please? Or can you even point me to the dataset that just lists all police killings?

guildwriter 9y ago
There is no good database. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shoo... This is probably the best there is that I know of and it only goes back 2-3 years. The federals don't have anything complete.
icc97 9y ago
I did some investigation based on the Washington Post data for Skeptics Stack Exchange [0]. There's a significant difference between black and white killings. [0]: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/39887/37853 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/39887/37853
- ralusek 9y ago
  Look at the data from the data source used in that stack exchange. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shoo... white killed by police: 495 (49.5%) black killed by police: 259 (26.1%) hispanic killed by police: 172 (17.3%) other: 67 About 13% of the US population is black, and 12.5% is hispanic. Both groups ARE over-represented in police shootings, with black people being about 2x more likely to be killed than their population figure would suggest. Compared to the way this is portrayed in the news, however, I would suggest that these figures already run contrary to the narrative that this is primarily dictated on the basis of racist behavior by police. The fact that there are more white people killed by police annually ALONE (despite their larger representation in the population) is a fact that most people would be surprised to hear. What really offsets the data is once you begin to include racial statistics on crime. Obviously police officers aren't just taking individuals out of the population and random and killing them (isolated outliers not included), so it would be irresponsible to just compare the racial component of police shootings with population representation. This data, however, varies greatly by area. However, in urban environments in particular, the racial component in crime is enormous. In Chicago, for example 75.3% of homicide was committed by black people, 24.6% by hispanics, and 3.5% by white people. To expect equal representation in police shootings, given those crime statistics, would be completely insane. So the long story short is: given a straight comparison to population distributions, there is an overrepresentation of black/hispanic shootings by police. With the inclusion of racial participation in violent crime though, the motivation for police fatalities cannot responsibly be attributed to a racial motivation without a serious multivariate analysis.

ataturk 9y ago

I think your faith in body cameras is completely misplaced. What we should do instead is hold police to the exact same standards for self defense as the rest of the general public. That is, no more "qualified immunity." Also, the police should have to abide by all the same gun laws--if the state they live in has stupid laws, then everyone should be subject to all those stupid laws! No more "laws for thee but not for me" business anymore. No more machine guns unless NFA registered, which means only pre-1986 firearms for them. No more short-barreled rifles or shotguns unless properly registered. No more getting away with murders that any regular citizen would be jammed up for. Once the police start abiding by the laws, then I'll care what happens when they get themselves into a jam.

abandonliberty 9y ago

I agree with you in an ideal world. These concepts are obvious. Unfortunately, we don't see this implemented so I'm pretty sure that it isn't our timeline. The police are not here to protect you, but to ensure the functioning of society. This isn't pessimism; it's a fact of legal precedent - they have no obligation to protect any citizen [0]. Justice only happens when the crime unpunished would lead to undesirable destabilization of society. Sexual harassment was rampant in Hollywood for decades, only now that it threatens stability does it receive attention. Our ideals of justice and freedom only but tools and illusions to keep the gears of society turning. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

alexwilde 9y ago

I would add Education to the forefront of accountability. Police officer careers require no more education than a high school diploma/GED and the police academy, which is roughly 27 weeks. Imagine if being a police officer meant having a deep understanding of ethics, psychology (not just tactics) and law. Stop accepting any physically fit hothead off the street because they can be trained into the role. Lastly, as a citizen, be willing to pay more in taxes knowing that the person who pulled you over cares, is qualified, and will not shoot you and try to cover it up.

threatofrain 9y ago
Police have also gained the hard-fought-in-court prerogative to screen candidates on the basis of intelligence, excluding anyone unusual in any direction. It creates a monoculture as opposed to an ecology of diverse intellectualism.
stmfreak 9y ago
I don't think training on ethics is required, nor would it be sufficient if not accompanied by a substantial change in accountability. Today's police are virtually untouchable. They know it, and act accordingly.