4 ms·

Why not clean house? At this point I can't imagine the local community, particularly minorities, have any trust in the authorities. Isn't that failure, why not

by jopsen 9y ago

Why not clean house? At this point I can't imagine the local community, particularly minorities, have any trust in the authorities. Isn't that failure, why not train a new police force with new uniforms and then phase out the old?

arethuza 9y ago
That's pretty much what happened in Northern Ireland as part of the Good Friday Agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Service_of_Northern_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Service_of_Northern_Ire...
- pjc50 9y ago
  Hmm. Population of NI: 1.8m. Population of Baltimore: 600k (declining! as shown by a helpful google graph). So NI is three Baltimores. Worst year of Troubles: 1972, 479 troubles-related deaths. I'm unclear as to whether that includes "background" non-political crime, so I'll round it up to 500 (current NI murder rate is about 1/100k pop). Current Baltimore murder rate: 373 in 2017. Murder rate for three Baltimores: 1119. That makes today's Baltimore twice as lethal as Troubles NI, with all its carbombs and troops on the streets. It's a mess that to me would seem to warrant national intervention. https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21724399-america-gets-safer-marylands-biggest-city-does-not-crime-and-despair-baltimore https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21724399-americ...
  - duncanawoods 9y ago
    That is a fascinating comparison but one aspect that may not make it a fair is comparing NI region vs. city. It would be interesting to compare just Belfast to Baltimore because thats where the majority of deaths happened. edit: add a dodgy esimation Belfast poulation in 70's: 431k % of troubles deaths in Belfast : 43% => murder rate: 479 * 0.43 / 431 = 44 homicides per 100k But as you note, the NI figures is only the political murders so it can only really be compared against a similar subset of Baltimore homicides e.g. "gang violence".
gk1 9y ago
We tried. Baltimore is on its third police commissioner in just six years. Where are you going to get the people and money for a “new police force”? BPD is already severely understaffed.
bedhead 9y ago
Unions
dhimes 9y ago
I think the Cosmological Principle can be applied to these situations. The CP roughly states that when we observe the Universe we are seeing a representative part. We are not living in some "special place." Applied here (and in other situations where groups of people act for good or for bad), it would mean that the bad behavior is not because the police are inherently any worse than anybody else, but rather the evolution of the situation led them to this behavior, and, importantly, would lead most sets of people to this behavior. So replacing the actors would either need to be done periodically, or would have to be done with an entirely new set of rules. This is also my bias for things like the banking crisis. When something like that happens, it's too easy to blame something like greed. But that's missing the point. If you don't change the rules or some other aspect of the game, you are going to get the same situation again.
- neuland 9y ago
  Where is the line between the environment and the individual? Even if the Baltimore environment drove the police to criminal behavior, it is unacceptable to let them get away with it. Obviously there is an issue with the environment but that doesn’t really affect the current situation: namely bad behavior in the police department. Corrupt and criminal cops need to be prosecuted. The system needs to change going forward (equipment, policies, training, community outreach, etc).
  - dhimes 9y ago
    I'm not to let anybody get away with it. I'm just saying that without a change of environment the next group of police are likely to end up doing the same things after some time.
    - neuland 9y ago
      My mistake for misreading your comment. That's definitely true. Punishing the egregious cases is a step in the right direction. But, there are a million other things that need to be fixed, including many things outside the police department's control.
SaintGhurka 9y ago
Since the Freddie Gray case in 2015 and the subsequent riots, Baltimore and its police force have undergone significant reforms. The murder rate is up 50% since then for the third year in a row. Dropping the hammer on police may sound like it would be satisfying, but if I lived in a place where the community suddenly decided to cast the whole police force as villains, I'd move my family out for fear of the spike in crime that will certainly result. I can't think of a city in the US that hasn't endured a murder wave once the vilification of police became fashionable.
- KingMob 9y ago
  Do you have any links showing a connection between police criticism and increasing murder rates in Baltimore? Or is your argument that police brutality and dirty methods are necessary to keep minorities in line? Is this like Minority Report's Pre-Crime division, where the Baltimore PD just knows these kids are gonna commit murders when they grow up, so it's better to plant guns on them and remove them now? Also, "vilification of police" has never been "fashionable"; it's arisen for decades in response to police crimes, and will continue until we restructure wholesale how PDs work.

by jopsen 9y ago

arethuza 9y ago

That's pretty much what happened in Northern Ireland as part of the Good Friday Agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Service_of_Northern_Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Service_of_Northern_Ire...

pjc50 9y ago
Hmm. Population of NI: 1.8m. Population of Baltimore: 600k (declining! as shown by a helpful google graph). So NI is three Baltimores. Worst year of Troubles: 1972, 479 troubles-related deaths. I'm unclear as to whether that includes "background" non-political crime, so I'll round it up to 500 (current NI murder rate is about 1/100k pop). Current Baltimore murder rate: 373 in 2017. Murder rate for three Baltimores: 1119. That makes today's Baltimore twice as lethal as Troubles NI, with all its carbombs and troops on the streets. It's a mess that to me would seem to warrant national intervention. https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21724399-america-gets-safer-marylands-biggest-city-does-not-crime-and-despair-baltimore https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21724399-americ...
- duncanawoods 9y ago
  That is a fascinating comparison but one aspect that may not make it a fair is comparing NI region vs. city. It would be interesting to compare just Belfast to Baltimore because thats where the majority of deaths happened. edit: add a dodgy esimation Belfast poulation in 70's: 431k % of troubles deaths in Belfast : 43% => murder rate: 479 * 0.43 / 431 = 44 homicides per 100k But as you note, the NI figures is only the political murders so it can only really be compared against a similar subset of Baltimore homicides e.g. "gang violence".

gk1 9y ago

We tried. Baltimore is on its third police commissioner in just six years. Where are you going to get the people and money for a “new police force”? BPD is already severely understaffed.

bedhead 9y ago

Unions

dhimes 9y ago

I think the Cosmological Principle can be applied to these situations. The CP roughly states that when we observe the Universe we are seeing a representative part. We are not living in some "special place." Applied here (and in other situations where groups of people act for good or for bad), it would mean that the bad behavior is not because the police are inherently any worse than anybody else, but rather the evolution of the situation led them to this behavior, and, importantly, would lead most sets of people to this behavior. So replacing the actors would either need to be done periodically, or would have to be done with an entirely new set of rules. This is also my bias for things like the banking crisis. When something like that happens, it's too easy to blame something like greed. But that's missing the point. If you don't change the rules or some other aspect of the game, you are going to get the same situation again.

neuland 9y ago
Where is the line between the environment and the individual? Even if the Baltimore environment drove the police to criminal behavior, it is unacceptable to let them get away with it. Obviously there is an issue with the environment but that doesn’t really affect the current situation: namely bad behavior in the police department. Corrupt and criminal cops need to be prosecuted. The system needs to change going forward (equipment, policies, training, community outreach, etc).
- dhimes 9y ago
  I'm not to let anybody get away with it. I'm just saying that without a change of environment the next group of police are likely to end up doing the same things after some time.
  - neuland 9y ago
    My mistake for misreading your comment. That's definitely true. Punishing the egregious cases is a step in the right direction. But, there are a million other things that need to be fixed, including many things outside the police department's control.

SaintGhurka 9y ago

Since the Freddie Gray case in 2015 and the subsequent riots, Baltimore and its police force have undergone significant reforms. The murder rate is up 50% since then for the third year in a row. Dropping the hammer on police may sound like it would be satisfying, but if I lived in a place where the community suddenly decided to cast the whole police force as villains, I'd move my family out for fear of the spike in crime that will certainly result. I can't think of a city in the US that hasn't endured a murder wave once the vilification of police became fashionable.

KingMob 9y ago
Do you have any links showing a connection between police criticism and increasing murder rates in Baltimore? Or is your argument that police brutality and dirty methods are necessary to keep minorities in line? Is this like Minority Report's Pre-Crime division, where the Baltimore PD just knows these kids are gonna commit murders when they grow up, so it's better to plant guns on them and remove them now? Also, "vilification of police" has never been "fashionable"; it's arisen for decades in response to police crimes, and will continue until we restructure wholesale how PDs work.