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What kills people is inadequate security measures, not depth diving vs. static apnea in a pool. There have been very few (I think only one) deaths during freed

What kills people is inadequate security measures, not depth diving vs. static apnea in a pool. There have been very few (I think only one) deaths during freediving competitions, where protocols are used to guarantee the security of the athletes. Remember that you don't die of a black out, you die of drowning because you inhale water during a black out. As said in another comment, the black out is a protective mechanism when you run low on oxygen, but the breathing reflex is triggered by high CO2. Freedivers train both to sustain low oxygen (by doing long breath holds) and high CO2 (by doing repeats of shorter ones). Monitoring a static apnea is pretty simple if you just pay close attention: when a black out happens, the diver will usually release a lot of air for instance, and pulling them out of water before they drown is what you do. Then you slap them to wake them up :) In open water competitions, these days divers are tethered to the dive line, announce their target depth and can't go past it. They also announce an expected dive time which is used to plan the start of the safety divers. These safety divers escort the athlete on the end of the dive up (sometimes, as deep as from 30m), staying close enough to grab them if needed, but never touching them (that would disqualify as assistance). There is also a counter weight in place to bring up everything quickly in case something goes wrong deep. Issues are usually happening close to the surface (let's say in the last 10-15m); deep blackouts are very rare and usually a consequence of other problems like being disoriented if you get a ruptured eardrum. Recreative freediving is a wonderful activity with very little risk if you just use a buddy system and don't push the limits beyond what both of you can do. It's good for you body and your mind!

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
The problem is that you can't hold your breath if you black out. So if you black out while submerged you're in grave danger, even more so if you're some 30m down (then you're as good as dead). Even if you have a buddy while this happens and they manage to grab you and drag you out instantly, then start CPR the moment you're on the surface there's nothing guaranteeing you're going to survive.
- apetrov 9y ago
  Actually the rescue procedure is straightforward https://www.deeperblue.com/rescue-procedures-for-freediver-black-out/ https://www.deeperblue.com/rescue-procedures-for-freediver-b... so if there is a trained buddy watching your back you gonna be fine. PS you don't need CPR to recover from blackout.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
    That link literally says exactly what my comment says. That if you black out on the surface, then, OK, but if you black out in the water then laryngospasm will protect you from inhaling water for a bit (under a minute), but then it will end, at which point you'll inhale water and CPR will become even harder. etc. etc.
    - fabrice_d 9y ago
      Sure, but if you have a buddy, a minute is more than enough for a rescue. I did it a couple of times from about 10m and it is a bit stressful but I got free beers in the end :)
      - YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
        Sounds like fun. Maybe drown-and-get-rescued should be introduced as a new sport.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
      Actually, reading a bit about it, laryngospasm does not occur during drowning and so it can't protect you. The source is "Laryngospasm in breath-hold diving", found in the proceedings of the 2006 Breath-hold diving workshop: https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/files/UHMS_DAN_2006_Breath-hold_Workshop_Proceedings.pdf https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/files/UHMS_DAN_2006_Breat... Vocal cord closure is certainly protective in the initial stages of an immersion accident. This occurs only when the victim is conscious. A person who is unconscious when they enter the water or who loses consciousness in the water will not have protective laryngeal reflexes. If consciousness is lost during static apnea or in an underwater swimming contest, the vocal cords will relax and will not close in response to inhaled water. Similarly a breath-hold diver who loses con sciousness will not develop laryngospasm.
YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
>> There have been very few (I think only one) deaths during freediving competitions, where protocols are used to guarantee the security of the athletes. Deaths are more frequent than that. A total of 417 freediving accident cases were captured; 308 fatal and 109 non-fatal. [1] Of those 417, 18% or ~75 were freediving proper (the rest were snorkelling, spearfishing etc). That was between 2006 and 2011- so about 15 incidents a year, 3/4 of them probably fatal. Your comment specifically mentions competitions, but that is not really a good measure, because people often dive solo to go after records etc. In any case, there have been several high-profile deaths in recent years: Audrey Mestre [2], Nicholas Mevoli [3], Loïc Leferme [4], Patrick Musimu [5], Adel Abu Haliqa [6] and of course my personal hero, Natalia Molchanova [7] whom, I should say, is not really gone and is going to come up any time now. So, you know. Not exactly "very few" deaths. ________________________ [1] http://divewise.org/education/freediver-blackout/statistics/ http://divewise.org/education/freediver-blackout/statistics/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Mestre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Mestre [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Mevoli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Mevoli [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo%C3%AFc_Leferme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo%C3%AFc_Leferme [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Musimu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Musimu [6] https://www.thenational.ae/sport/risks-of-freediving-apparent-with-death-of-algerian-in-dubai-but-sport-s-popularity-still-grows-1.251263 https://www.thenational.ae/sport/risks-of-freediving-apparen... [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalia_Molchanova https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalia_Molchanova
- fabrice_d 9y ago
  So you know, only one in competition (Mevoli). I'm very well aware than many die in less well catered environments. I've lost spearfishing friends, and I've been part of search and rescue operations more than once unfortunately. I've also rescued people during freediving training sessions where they felt that they could push their limits because there was adequate safety. But that was always the same story: a little bit deeper, a little longer... I stand by my point that if you use well known safety measures you reduce the risk level a lot. Specifically from your list: Mestre did not have proper safety (a total shit show from Pipin), Musimu was training alone, Leferme has a inadequate setup for what he was doing, Molchanova was diving alone in >30m (should have been a joke for her, but anything can happen). We'll never know for Adel Abu Haliqa. I'm not even sure why I argue about that on the internet. I should go diving...

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago

The problem is that you can't hold your breath if you black out. So if you black out while submerged you're in grave danger, even more so if you're some 30m down (then you're as good as dead). Even if you have a buddy while this happens and they manage to grab you and drag you out instantly, then start CPR the moment you're on the surface there's nothing guaranteeing you're going to survive.

apetrov 9y ago
Actually the rescue procedure is straightforward https://www.deeperblue.com/rescue-procedures-for-freediver-black-out/ https://www.deeperblue.com/rescue-procedures-for-freediver-b... so if there is a trained buddy watching your back you gonna be fine. PS you don't need CPR to recover from blackout.
- YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
  That link literally says exactly what my comment says. That if you black out on the surface, then, OK, but if you black out in the water then laryngospasm will protect you from inhaling water for a bit (under a minute), but then it will end, at which point you'll inhale water and CPR will become even harder. etc. etc.
  - fabrice_d 9y ago
    Sure, but if you have a buddy, a minute is more than enough for a rescue. I did it a couple of times from about 10m and it is a bit stressful but I got free beers in the end :)
    - YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
      Sounds like fun. Maybe drown-and-get-rescued should be introduced as a new sport.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
    Actually, reading a bit about it, laryngospasm does not occur during drowning and so it can't protect you. The source is "Laryngospasm in breath-hold diving", found in the proceedings of the 2006 Breath-hold diving workshop: https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/files/UHMS_DAN_2006_Breath-hold_Workshop_Proceedings.pdf https://www.diversalertnetwork.org/files/UHMS_DAN_2006_Breat... Vocal cord closure is certainly protective in the initial stages of an immersion accident. This occurs only when the victim is conscious. A person who is unconscious when they enter the water or who loses consciousness in the water will not have protective laryngeal reflexes. If consciousness is lost during static apnea or in an underwater swimming contest, the vocal cords will relax and will not close in response to inhaled water. Similarly a breath-hold diver who loses con sciousness will not develop laryngospasm.

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago

>> There have been very few (I think only one) deaths during freediving competitions, where protocols are used to guarantee the security of the athletes. Deaths are more frequent than that. A total of 417 freediving accident cases were captured; 308 fatal and 109 non-fatal. [1] Of those 417, 18% or ~75 were freediving proper (the rest were snorkelling, spearfishing etc). That was between 2006 and 2011- so about 15 incidents a year, 3/4 of them probably fatal. Your comment specifically mentions competitions, but that is not really a good measure, because people often dive solo to go after records etc. In any case, there have been several high-profile deaths in recent years: Audrey Mestre [2], Nicholas Mevoli [3], Loïc Leferme [4], Patrick Musimu [5], Adel Abu Haliqa [6] and of course my personal hero, Natalia Molchanova [7] whom, I should say, is not really gone and is going to come up any time now. So, you know. Not exactly "very few" deaths. ________________________ [1] http://divewise.org/education/freediver-blackout/statistics/ http://divewise.org/education/freediver-blackout/statistics/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Mestre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Mestre [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Mevoli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Mevoli [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo%C3%AFc_Leferme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo%C3%AFc_Leferme [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Musimu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Musimu [6] https://www.thenational.ae/sport/risks-of-freediving-apparent-with-death-of-algerian-in-dubai-but-sport-s-popularity-still-grows-1.251263 https://www.thenational.ae/sport/risks-of-freediving-apparen... [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalia_Molchanova https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalia_Molchanova

fabrice_d 9y ago
So you know, only one in competition (Mevoli). I'm very well aware than many die in less well catered environments. I've lost spearfishing friends, and I've been part of search and rescue operations more than once unfortunately. I've also rescued people during freediving training sessions where they felt that they could push their limits because there was adequate safety. But that was always the same story: a little bit deeper, a little longer... I stand by my point that if you use well known safety measures you reduce the risk level a lot. Specifically from your list: Mestre did not have proper safety (a total shit show from Pipin), Musimu was training alone, Leferme has a inadequate setup for what he was doing, Molchanova was diving alone in >30m (should have been a joke for her, but anything can happen). We'll never know for Adel Abu Haliqa. I'm not even sure why I argue about that on the internet. I should go diving...