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I live on U$ 12,000 a year* in a Latin American country (Uruguay), but it isn't a good enough amount to retire on. U$ 30,000 is doable, but not millionaire-ish

I live on U$ 12,000 a year* in a Latin American country (Uruguay), but it isn't a good enough amount to retire on. U$ 30,000 is doable, but not millionaire-ish. You could live quite comfortably and with housemaids and eating out often, but forget about a (good) car or high-end electronic toys (unless you bring them with you from abroad). There are some nice places to retire, but I'm not sure if you wouldn't find it boring quite quickly. Oh, and government loves to swamp you with taxes. (*) that's after taxes, my pre-tax earnings are about U$ 24,000

jacquesm 16y ago
How is living in Uruguay, apart from the money angle? I've heard lots of good stuff about it but never from someone that actually lived there. Most curious!
- GFischer 16y ago
  It's not bad :) The grass is always greener on the other side, but I'll try to be less biased: - It's reasonably safe and orderly by South American standards (1) - Some things are much cheaper, like anything labor-related (like housemaids) (2), or meat (we're the biggest per capita meat consumers in the world, as there are 5 cows per inhabitant) - Healthcare is in a socialist style (actually Mutualism) (3), and while it's always "on the brink of collapse", it works, - People are reasonably educated, you'll find enough English-speakers if you come here :) , quite an important "hacker"/IT population (small in numbers, but big relative to the overall 3.000.000 inhabitants). - OTOH, there's a big marginalized community (similar to the "favelas" in Brazil) that make about 10% of the population, but are the fastest-growing segment. So far, the most striking for an American will be seeing horse-drawn carriages full of litter, with poor children darting to collect the garbage bags of the middle class (needless to say, avoid them or they will relieve them of your wallet or cell phone as well), and beggars at quite a few street lights, or begging on the buses. - There's a mix of almost-cutting edge (countrywide 3G cell phone and internet access) with old-tech (all the paper-based bureaucracy for example) - Climate is quite moderate, although it's humid - some people, especially from middle Europe or Canada, think they won't experience the cold or heat. They're wrong. Humid cold and heat are way worse than their dry equivalents. Also, housing is not built to minimize the weather (no double or triple pane windows, bad insulation, bad or no heating in most houses) There are nice vacation spots if you like beaches, though the water is colder and less clear than in Brazil and way less so than in the Caribbean :) (sand is among the best in the world, though) - Several first world niceties like modern cars or electronics are out of reach for the masses, because the government likes to tax them out of reach. For smaller electronics, it's cheaper to fly to the US and smuggle them back than to buy them in a store. For larger stuff (say, a LCD TV) you're out of luck. Also, several easy credit options available in the US are not available here. - Housing in the nicer parts of Montevideo is expensive (on par with some of the not-as-nice parts of American or Canadian cities), as the housing bubble hasn't exploded yet, and credit is not as easily available. (1) it reminds me of a National Geographic story about the Baltic countries. If you arrived at them from Russia, they seem 1st world and orderly. But if you came to them from Europe, they seem disorderly and third-worldish :P (2) there are several legal pitfalls, as there are quite cumbersome legal regulations. Most people live in a "grey" economy, complying with most regulations but underreporting or not complying with others (it's quite usual to underreport salaries to the tax collectors) (3) The best explanation I could come up with after some Googling is: http://www.hmg.gov.uk/media/60217/mutuals.pdf http://www.hmg.gov.uk/media/60217/mutuals.pdf "Mutual organisations do not have external shareholders - they are controlled by their members. Members may be users of the mutual, employees, other stakeholders or a combination of these Mutual organisations are either owned by and run in the interests of existing members, as is the case in building societies, cooperatives and friendly societies, or, as in many public services, owned on behalf of the wider community and run in the interests of the wider community"
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    Mutual organizations sound like credit unions. Thanks for writing that very detailed response, there is lots of concrete information in there. I've visited Latin America several times, Bogota, Colombia and Coronado, Panama but never got around to visiting Uruguay. I hear lots of good stuff about Costa Rica as well.
revorad 16y ago
wow you pay 50% taxes on $24k in Uruguay?
- GFischer 16y ago
  It's not really all taxes,more like "deductions". Out of my typical paycheck - 17.5% is withdrawn for retirements savings/pension funds - the first 600 dollars are untaxed, then bracketed 10%, 15%, 20% and 22%. I pay up to 22% tax bracket, 25% on the extra holidays check. (in all, it's about 12% of my pre-deductions income except in Christmas where it shoots up to 20% or so)(1) - 6% goes to healthcare (it's mandatory), I pay an extra 6% on top of that but that was entirely my option (for better healthcare). - some miscellaneous taxes (a reconversion fund for workers and others) Well that makes out like 40%, not 50%, but you get the idea :) After that, we have a 22% Value Added Tax on everything, and a minimum of 60% taxes on imports, but those are "optional" (optional, that is, if you don't eat or buy anything - and it's regressive taxation) (1)Some companies cheat the DGI (IRS equivalent) by under-reporting employee's salaries (typically so they fall in a lower income bracket, or untaxed income bracket), and then pay a slightly higher than average market salary overall. Of course, that means you can't go to the government and complain if they fail to pay you, and it goes back to bite you when you retire (retirement plans are tied to how much you were paid when working).

jacquesm 16y ago

How is living in Uruguay, apart from the money angle? I've heard lots of good stuff about it but never from someone that actually lived there. Most curious!

GFischer 16y ago
It's not bad :) The grass is always greener on the other side, but I'll try to be less biased: - It's reasonably safe and orderly by South American standards (1) - Some things are much cheaper, like anything labor-related (like housemaids) (2), or meat (we're the biggest per capita meat consumers in the world, as there are 5 cows per inhabitant) - Healthcare is in a socialist style (actually Mutualism) (3), and while it's always "on the brink of collapse", it works, - People are reasonably educated, you'll find enough English-speakers if you come here :) , quite an important "hacker"/IT population (small in numbers, but big relative to the overall 3.000.000 inhabitants). - OTOH, there's a big marginalized community (similar to the "favelas" in Brazil) that make about 10% of the population, but are the fastest-growing segment. So far, the most striking for an American will be seeing horse-drawn carriages full of litter, with poor children darting to collect the garbage bags of the middle class (needless to say, avoid them or they will relieve them of your wallet or cell phone as well), and beggars at quite a few street lights, or begging on the buses. - There's a mix of almost-cutting edge (countrywide 3G cell phone and internet access) with old-tech (all the paper-based bureaucracy for example) - Climate is quite moderate, although it's humid - some people, especially from middle Europe or Canada, think they won't experience the cold or heat. They're wrong. Humid cold and heat are way worse than their dry equivalents. Also, housing is not built to minimize the weather (no double or triple pane windows, bad insulation, bad or no heating in most houses) There are nice vacation spots if you like beaches, though the water is colder and less clear than in Brazil and way less so than in the Caribbean :) (sand is among the best in the world, though) - Several first world niceties like modern cars or electronics are out of reach for the masses, because the government likes to tax them out of reach. For smaller electronics, it's cheaper to fly to the US and smuggle them back than to buy them in a store. For larger stuff (say, a LCD TV) you're out of luck. Also, several easy credit options available in the US are not available here. - Housing in the nicer parts of Montevideo is expensive (on par with some of the not-as-nice parts of American or Canadian cities), as the housing bubble hasn't exploded yet, and credit is not as easily available. (1) it reminds me of a National Geographic story about the Baltic countries. If you arrived at them from Russia, they seem 1st world and orderly. But if you came to them from Europe, they seem disorderly and third-worldish :P (2) there are several legal pitfalls, as there are quite cumbersome legal regulations. Most people live in a "grey" economy, complying with most regulations but underreporting or not complying with others (it's quite usual to underreport salaries to the tax collectors) (3) The best explanation I could come up with after some Googling is: http://www.hmg.gov.uk/media/60217/mutuals.pdf http://www.hmg.gov.uk/media/60217/mutuals.pdf "Mutual organisations do not have external shareholders - they are controlled by their members. Members may be users of the mutual, employees, other stakeholders or a combination of these Mutual organisations are either owned by and run in the interests of existing members, as is the case in building societies, cooperatives and friendly societies, or, as in many public services, owned on behalf of the wider community and run in the interests of the wider community"
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Mutual organizations sound like credit unions. Thanks for writing that very detailed response, there is lots of concrete information in there. I've visited Latin America several times, Bogota, Colombia and Coronado, Panama but never got around to visiting Uruguay. I hear lots of good stuff about Costa Rica as well.

revorad 16y ago

wow you pay 50% taxes on $24k in Uruguay?

GFischer 16y ago
It's not really all taxes,more like "deductions". Out of my typical paycheck - 17.5% is withdrawn for retirements savings/pension funds - the first 600 dollars are untaxed, then bracketed 10%, 15%, 20% and 22%. I pay up to 22% tax bracket, 25% on the extra holidays check. (in all, it's about 12% of my pre-deductions income except in Christmas where it shoots up to 20% or so)(1) - 6% goes to healthcare (it's mandatory), I pay an extra 6% on top of that but that was entirely my option (for better healthcare). - some miscellaneous taxes (a reconversion fund for workers and others) Well that makes out like 40%, not 50%, but you get the idea :) After that, we have a 22% Value Added Tax on everything, and a minimum of 60% taxes on imports, but those are "optional" (optional, that is, if you don't eat or buy anything - and it's regressive taxation) (1)Some companies cheat the DGI (IRS equivalent) by under-reporting employee's salaries (typically so they fall in a lower income bracket, or untaxed income bracket), and then pay a slightly higher than average market salary overall. Of course, that means you can't go to the government and complain if they fail to pay you, and it goes back to bite you when you retire (retirement plans are tied to how much you were paid when working).