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I'm going to tell a story about two people and two outcomes and hope people will read it. One man in Europe suffered a serious illness and was unable to contin

I'm going to tell a story about two people and two outcomes and hope people will read it. One man in Europe suffered a serious illness and was unable to continue in his previous career and had no new marketable skills. He had access to a robust social system that covered his living costs, medical care, and re-education. After several years of treatment and learning, he now has a wife and kids, amazing job that works with his disabilities, and a future. That guy is a former acquaintance of mine. The second guy in the USA also lost his life due to medical issues, in his case a misdiagnosis and poorly done surgery. He had to then live off of savings and a tiny pension (which he was fortunate to even have but covered a fraction of his costs) with no insurance or access to good medical care since he lost his job provided insurance. He fought in court for years for disability and was denied repeatedly. He bounced around trying to find a place to live and access to services, even cheaper countries, but could never get legitimized or stabilized anywhere as he had no real support. He tried to self educate but the lack of stability and increasing medical issues without proper care always disrupted any attempts. His loved ones abandoned him as is all so common in long term illness and suffering. Depression and suicidal thoughts then take even more of that precious energy and he knows down deep at his age, and with his needs, all is lost. That guy is me. So the takeaway is next time you are faced with the issue of social systems and if they are "worth it" or if people "deserve" your contribution to the whole, please remember this story. If you can't care about the human element and need a practical reason, think about whether it's truly better for society to bring people back into the fold and make them a productive part again, or if casting them off as broken and useless is really "better". More importantly think about if it was YOU or a loved one in need...who could have a future and contribute if just given the opportunities. It's too late for me but maybe not for you and the next person in my shoes.

crankylinuxuser 9y ago
In this country (the US), your pure worth is what you're able to generate right now. If it is low or close to 0, you are worthless - refuse to be left for dead, or hope some "church" has pity on you. The state sees you as a negative balance. The federal cares not. They realllly dont want to see money flowing from the state/federal down to the little guy. My mother in law, until she retired, had to tell elderly on assistance programs , "I'm sorry, but there isn't enough food or money for food this week." BTW, this is in Bloomington, IN. Not exactly a "shithole country". In reality, not much will or can be done until a massive social upheaval happens. At that junction, then yes we can fix these glaring wrongs. But the entrenched, gerrymandered, low-influence masses are stuck until that comes around. If.
- hestipod 9y ago
  Sadly I agree with this 100%. It sounds cynical and negative and I don't WANT to believe it...but my experience for nearly 15 years and the countless experiences of others I have met like me proves it out.
JBlue42 9y ago
hestipod - I found your contribution worthwhile so thank you. I hope you're able to find some help.
- hestipod 9y ago
  Thanks for being empathetic. It's not as common as it should be.
nkoren 9y ago
I have read and will remember this. I've seen this sort of thing happen to too many people. Were it not for half a dozen dumb lucky breaks, I could be in this situation myself. It could happen to anyone. A robust benefits system doesn't always fix this. The UK had and in many ways still has one; it's definitely better than nothing, but it still destroys countless lives through malevolent bureaucracy and structural poverty traps. It's possible to fix this, however. Almost everywhere in the world, support for Universal Basic Income is growing, across various political divides. The urgency of this support will only increase as the population ages and automation causes more structural unemployment and underemployment. It will happen eventually. I don't know how long this will take. It may be a long time. Or it may happen surprisingly quickly. I put as much effort as I can into fighting for the latter. So I really do think that a better world is coming -- one that has a place for you in it. If there's any way you can hang in there, please do. In the meantime, know that even if you don't feel like you're making a contribution to the world, you are. What you've written here, for example, will resonate in people's minds. It will play a part in helping to change things. There's no way know how much that could matter. My own interest in this, for example, was sparked by a completely random girl's blog rant about her interactions with the UK unemployment benefit. Her pithy, frustrated rant has led to me investing many hundreds of hours into activism about this, which in turn has spurred still more people into action. Maybe your words can have a similar effect on someone. So thank you, and know that I appreciate what you're doing.
- hestipod 9y ago
  I appreciate the response and my heart bleeds for the countless people like me and even worse out there. While yes, even in places with systems there is not a guarantee, at least there is a chance, and the UK's system isn't amazing compared to many continental systems. It's realistically too late for me to wait for any such paradigm shift. I am on too short of a clock both physically and mentally. I do hope it will make this sort of less much less common for the future though.
Diederich 9y ago
Where do you live now, if I may ask?
- hestipod 9y ago
  I'd rather not say specifically in public, but rural middle America.
panta 9y ago
That this can happen and there is no public safety net is infuriating to me. This cannot happen in a civilized society. Can we, the HN community, do something for you? Maybe setup a collection towards an "honor loan" to give this guy some buffer to get up again?
- hestipod 9y ago
  I appreciate the thought but there are some issues that make such kindnesses difficult: 1. People like me need more than a one time donation or loan, we need long term support so we can even have the stability to TRY to rebuild. That's the purpose of those social systems people in my regions loathe so much. 2. There is an underlying suspicion/anger towards people who need money as it hits that "what if they are a scammer/they don't deserve it/they are being lazy" button in the subconscious. Even the nicest people aren't immune to this in practice. 3. My chances are slim even WITH help so there is a big chance I'd never be able to make good on it and I couldn't with good conscience accept any help without that being clearly understood. 4. My previous experiences with "offers" have taken a big toll on me as they have invariably been people trolling or looking for a quick feel good and never following through. What I think is the only truly possible and practical solution is for someone to "teach me how to fish" and hire me within my limits. That's still a charity and special opportunity in the end but it would allow me to at least have a path forward. Something a few hours a day at most, remote, that would be flexible enough to work with/around my pain and limits. My broken body dictates my schedule, and being in my 40s it's only getting worse naturally as well. I saw a guy post on reddit not long ago who sat at a computer tracking oil tankers and analyzing when they slowed or deviated in order to manipulate markets. Something like that would be great for me but it's not something that I can just "go out and do". The normal ideas people have for someone at home like content writing etc are A. Not as sustainable as people think and B. Soul killing. I always had jobs that contributed to the greater good so slaving away doing something I despise to enrich someone else, even if I could realistically do it, is just too much more mental weight to bear when everything else about my life sucks. It may sound choosy but you have to have SOME good parts to stay mentally intact. I need a positive purpose in addition to that ugly paper that buys life.
  - 9y ago
tripzilch 9y ago
Here is another story: http://www.iquilezles.org/blog/?p=2659 http://www.iquilezles.org/blog/?p=2659 When I read this I cried. I'm also the lucky bastard who got to live in a country with a great social system, but if I had been born in the USA, I could've been that woman. I would have fucked up, and probably somehow managed to fuck up my relationship with my family (last line of support without a functioning social system), I love them and they're here for me, but I fear I might've burned bridges because of all the stress and psychological issues, if it wasn't for the social system in my country. In the US I would have ended up on the streets, probably become an addict, probably be dead.
- hestipod 9y ago
  The number of people in this situation in this country is so huge people just cannot accept it and ignore it for their own bias/sanity. That woman is stronger than me as I would never last out on the street and have always said I would end things when it gets to that point. The savings will run out soon enough and the last room in the last corner of the last resentful family I have is wearing thin, so my resolve will be tested sooner rather than later. I have avoided the addiction route so far as most drugs just make me feel worse, but I can completely see how it so easily happens to so many. There comes a time you just want ANYTHING to take away the pain or make you feel different if even for a moment. It's enraging to know what you need is very possible and being done elsewhere...but you aren't "allowed" that chance to live and people all around you are adamantly against it. I will never understand this cruelty and selfishness.
  - tripzilch 9y ago
    (I really hope you still read this, because I didn't see your reply until five days later, sorry) I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. I wish you all the strength. Hugs. Good to hear you're avoiding addiction so far, it will sap your resolve like nothing else. Please also remember that alcohol is a terrible addictive hard drug that will drag you down just as easily as the illegal drugs would (in particular as soon as you use it for escape, like you describe). It's basically an unnecessary extra fight you have to fight in addition to all the other shit. I'm actually struggling with that a little myself, but the social help I can get here (as well as a super supportive family/parents), gives me relief and space needed to battle that too. Even with proper social support, mental health problems are super hard. Other people [including gov help] can't fight the fight in your head for you, just point one in the right direction, provide motivation, and perhaps take other weights off your shoulders. Sorry, I just read back your post and your problems are physical. The following advice remains the same. You may be able to find people that want to help. Just random good people are out there. But even if you find people willing/able to do that for you, it's a difficult and humbling search to find out how exactly they can unburden you without it actually costing you just as much energy. If there are people willing to help you, think very hard and make a good and clear plan. Be clear how exactly they can help you, especially the little things, that may be super easy for others and hard for you. You need to tell them explicitly and without shame. One other thing that is important is if you know a generous angel, is to discuss how often you need this help. Maybe your neighbour will help you with groceries or taking out the trash (or whatever), but if you actually depend on that help, while they're just happy to help out their neighbour this one time, you'll be expending as much energy finding someone to help you this week, and the next. I get that it's hard to ask someone offering help to help you even more, but if you understand what I'm saying you will be able to explain. Ask them to be honest and only offer you time they are comfortable with (and without regretting it after a while). Maybe they'll tell you they can realistically help you take out the trash once a month. That's cool, because that's one out of four weeks. But now you know someone you can depend on, you know what you're asking is not too much for them, you can feel better about getting the help, knowing this is what they're comfortable with. I'm not saying you should refuse one-time help, but that it's important to have this discussion (openly) so you know when (or if) you can depend on them again. The above is a piece of advice I got from a magazine that people in my country (Netherlands) receive when they are on long-term disability benefits (called "UWV Perspectief", for any Dutch still reading along). It's a great magazine (beautiful design and typography too :p), even if I find it hard to read because it's kind of confronting, I'm kind of amazed that this thing exists. I am so incredibly thankful for this aspect of my country. I'll be forever in its debt. I try to repay as much as I can by doing volunteer work, teaching kids programming and computer stuff, helping them studying for math tests (and just being a kind person to them--the place where I work has a social function for kids with difficult backgrounds too). That way I'm using the things that I learned studying Computational Science, all that knowledge I can't use in a "proper" (paying) job, because I can only do it for 10 hours per week (I need the other time mostly to rest, and keep my apartment in order, administrative stuff, laundry etc, which is equally taxing for me). It gives me meaning and feel I'm contributing to society (maybe even more than some paying jobs that people do; but that's a very personal opinion and I'm in no position to be on a high horse). I really hope that you pull through in some way or another, and find a way to live with ease.

crankylinuxuser 9y ago

In this country (the US), your pure worth is what you're able to generate right now. If it is low or close to 0, you are worthless - refuse to be left for dead, or hope some "church" has pity on you. The state sees you as a negative balance. The federal cares not. They realllly dont want to see money flowing from the state/federal down to the little guy. My mother in law, until she retired, had to tell elderly on assistance programs , "I'm sorry, but there isn't enough food or money for food this week." BTW, this is in Bloomington, IN. Not exactly a "shithole country". In reality, not much will or can be done until a massive social upheaval happens. At that junction, then yes we can fix these glaring wrongs. But the entrenched, gerrymandered, low-influence masses are stuck until that comes around. If.

hestipod 9y ago
Sadly I agree with this 100%. It sounds cynical and negative and I don't WANT to believe it...but my experience for nearly 15 years and the countless experiences of others I have met like me proves it out.

JBlue42 9y ago

hestipod - I found your contribution worthwhile so thank you. I hope you're able to find some help.

hestipod 9y ago
Thanks for being empathetic. It's not as common as it should be.

nkoren 9y ago

I have read and will remember this. I've seen this sort of thing happen to too many people. Were it not for half a dozen dumb lucky breaks, I could be in this situation myself. It could happen to anyone. A robust benefits system doesn't always fix this. The UK had and in many ways still has one; it's definitely better than nothing, but it still destroys countless lives through malevolent bureaucracy and structural poverty traps. It's possible to fix this, however. Almost everywhere in the world, support for Universal Basic Income is growing, across various political divides. The urgency of this support will only increase as the population ages and automation causes more structural unemployment and underemployment. It will happen eventually. I don't know how long this will take. It may be a long time. Or it may happen surprisingly quickly. I put as much effort as I can into fighting for the latter. So I really do think that a better world is coming -- one that has a place for you in it. If there's any way you can hang in there, please do. In the meantime, know that even if you don't feel like you're making a contribution to the world, you are. What you've written here, for example, will resonate in people's minds. It will play a part in helping to change things. There's no way know how much that could matter. My own interest in this, for example, was sparked by a completely random girl's blog rant about her interactions with the UK unemployment benefit. Her pithy, frustrated rant has led to me investing many hundreds of hours into activism about this, which in turn has spurred still more people into action. Maybe your words can have a similar effect on someone. So thank you, and know that I appreciate what you're doing.

hestipod 9y ago
I appreciate the response and my heart bleeds for the countless people like me and even worse out there. While yes, even in places with systems there is not a guarantee, at least there is a chance, and the UK's system isn't amazing compared to many continental systems. It's realistically too late for me to wait for any such paradigm shift. I am on too short of a clock both physically and mentally. I do hope it will make this sort of less much less common for the future though.

Diederich 9y ago

Where do you live now, if I may ask?

hestipod 9y ago
I'd rather not say specifically in public, but rural middle America.

panta 9y ago

That this can happen and there is no public safety net is infuriating to me. This cannot happen in a civilized society. Can we, the HN community, do something for you? Maybe setup a collection towards an "honor loan" to give this guy some buffer to get up again?

hestipod 9y ago
I appreciate the thought but there are some issues that make such kindnesses difficult: 1. People like me need more than a one time donation or loan, we need long term support so we can even have the stability to TRY to rebuild. That's the purpose of those social systems people in my regions loathe so much. 2. There is an underlying suspicion/anger towards people who need money as it hits that "what if they are a scammer/they don't deserve it/they are being lazy" button in the subconscious. Even the nicest people aren't immune to this in practice. 3. My chances are slim even WITH help so there is a big chance I'd never be able to make good on it and I couldn't with good conscience accept any help without that being clearly understood. 4. My previous experiences with "offers" have taken a big toll on me as they have invariably been people trolling or looking for a quick feel good and never following through. What I think is the only truly possible and practical solution is for someone to "teach me how to fish" and hire me within my limits. That's still a charity and special opportunity in the end but it would allow me to at least have a path forward. Something a few hours a day at most, remote, that would be flexible enough to work with/around my pain and limits. My broken body dictates my schedule, and being in my 40s it's only getting worse naturally as well. I saw a guy post on reddit not long ago who sat at a computer tracking oil tankers and analyzing when they slowed or deviated in order to manipulate markets. Something like that would be great for me but it's not something that I can just "go out and do". The normal ideas people have for someone at home like content writing etc are A. Not as sustainable as people think and B. Soul killing. I always had jobs that contributed to the greater good so slaving away doing something I despise to enrich someone else, even if I could realistically do it, is just too much more mental weight to bear when everything else about my life sucks. It may sound choosy but you have to have SOME good parts to stay mentally intact. I need a positive purpose in addition to that ugly paper that buys life.
- 9y ago

tripzilch 9y ago

Here is another story: http://www.iquilezles.org/blog/?p=2659 http://www.iquilezles.org/blog/?p=2659 When I read this I cried. I'm also the lucky bastard who got to live in a country with a great social system, but if I had been born in the USA, I could've been that woman. I would have fucked up, and probably somehow managed to fuck up my relationship with my family (last line of support without a functioning social system), I love them and they're here for me, but I fear I might've burned bridges because of all the stress and psychological issues, if it wasn't for the social system in my country. In the US I would have ended up on the streets, probably become an addict, probably be dead.

hestipod 9y ago
The number of people in this situation in this country is so huge people just cannot accept it and ignore it for their own bias/sanity. That woman is stronger than me as I would never last out on the street and have always said I would end things when it gets to that point. The savings will run out soon enough and the last room in the last corner of the last resentful family I have is wearing thin, so my resolve will be tested sooner rather than later. I have avoided the addiction route so far as most drugs just make me feel worse, but I can completely see how it so easily happens to so many. There comes a time you just want ANYTHING to take away the pain or make you feel different if even for a moment. It's enraging to know what you need is very possible and being done elsewhere...but you aren't "allowed" that chance to live and people all around you are adamantly against it. I will never understand this cruelty and selfishness.
- tripzilch 9y ago
  (I really hope you still read this, because I didn't see your reply until five days later, sorry) I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. I wish you all the strength. Hugs. Good to hear you're avoiding addiction so far, it will sap your resolve like nothing else. Please also remember that alcohol is a terrible addictive hard drug that will drag you down just as easily as the illegal drugs would (in particular as soon as you use it for escape, like you describe). It's basically an unnecessary extra fight you have to fight in addition to all the other shit. I'm actually struggling with that a little myself, but the social help I can get here (as well as a super supportive family/parents), gives me relief and space needed to battle that too. Even with proper social support, mental health problems are super hard. Other people [including gov help] can't fight the fight in your head for you, just point one in the right direction, provide motivation, and perhaps take other weights off your shoulders. Sorry, I just read back your post and your problems are physical. The following advice remains the same. You may be able to find people that want to help. Just random good people are out there. But even if you find people willing/able to do that for you, it's a difficult and humbling search to find out how exactly they can unburden you without it actually costing you just as much energy. If there are people willing to help you, think very hard and make a good and clear plan. Be clear how exactly they can help you, especially the little things, that may be super easy for others and hard for you. You need to tell them explicitly and without shame. One other thing that is important is if you know a generous angel, is to discuss how often you need this help. Maybe your neighbour will help you with groceries or taking out the trash (or whatever), but if you actually depend on that help, while they're just happy to help out their neighbour this one time, you'll be expending as much energy finding someone to help you this week, and the next. I get that it's hard to ask someone offering help to help you even more, but if you understand what I'm saying you will be able to explain. Ask them to be honest and only offer you time they are comfortable with (and without regretting it after a while). Maybe they'll tell you they can realistically help you take out the trash once a month. That's cool, because that's one out of four weeks. But now you know someone you can depend on, you know what you're asking is not too much for them, you can feel better about getting the help, knowing this is what they're comfortable with. I'm not saying you should refuse one-time help, but that it's important to have this discussion (openly) so you know when (or if) you can depend on them again. The above is a piece of advice I got from a magazine that people in my country (Netherlands) receive when they are on long-term disability benefits (called "UWV Perspectief", for any Dutch still reading along). It's a great magazine (beautiful design and typography too :p), even if I find it hard to read because it's kind of confronting, I'm kind of amazed that this thing exists. I am so incredibly thankful for this aspect of my country. I'll be forever in its debt. I try to repay as much as I can by doing volunteer work, teaching kids programming and computer stuff, helping them studying for math tests (and just being a kind person to them--the place where I work has a social function for kids with difficult backgrounds too). That way I'm using the things that I learned studying Computational Science, all that knowledge I can't use in a "proper" (paying) job, because I can only do it for 10 hours per week (I need the other time mostly to rest, and keep my apartment in order, administrative stuff, laundry etc, which is equally taxing for me). It gives me meaning and feel I'm contributing to society (maybe even more than some paying jobs that people do; but that's a very personal opinion and I'm in no position to be on a high horse). I really hope that you pull through in some way or another, and find a way to live with ease.