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Whales are intelligent. They should not be killed by humans who mask the activities as scientific research. Japan is a great country and a leader on many level

Whales are intelligent. They should not be killed by humans who mask the activities as scientific research. Japan is a great country and a leader on many levels. I speak Japanese. I enjoy Japanese food and culture. The people are very kind and considerate. There are some who are concerned if you stop killing whales you must stop killing fish and other forms of sustenance. This is not the case. The difference is whales are not sustenance and are not something most Japanese would eat or enjoy to eat. Therefore to stop killing whales does not mean we must stop killing the fish we eat to survive. Cultures evolve and more forward. Japan should move forward and stop killing whales. Japanese people should not allow tax payer money to finance a new whaling ship. There are more important programs that are much more needed. The subsidies for whaling should end. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/23/japan-to-replace-whaling-mother-ship-in-sign-hunts-will-go-on https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jan/23/japan-to...

sandworm101 9y ago
And orca are not really whales. They are big dolphins. The name "killer whale" means "killer of whales", whale killer ... blame the french for that swap. I downloaded a bbc show called "wild wales" expecting an epic doc about the sea. What i got was two guys in a camo tent feeding peanuts to squirrels. Language is hard.
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  Orcas, porpoises, and dolphins are toothed whales. I don't know what you mean by "real whale" if the definition does not include them. Whatever it is, if your definition includes pilot whales and sperm whales, it probably has to include the dolphin family, too.
ickwabe 9y ago
Agreed. As should Norway and Iceland.
- irrational 9y ago
  I feel the same way about horses. They serve horse steaks in Iceland (and probably other places) which I find equally as barbaric.
  - dorchadas 9y ago
    The difference for me is that horses can be (and are) domesticated and raised for their meat. Nor are they necessarily endangered. If you find horsemeat barbaric, what about beef or chicken or pork? What about deer?
    - exclusiv 9y ago
      Horses are huge animals and often have to be put down for injuries to their legs. It's a shame to let meat go to waste. I don't know about killing horses in their prime though if that's what they do.
      - tgarv 9y ago
        You honestly think that most horse meat steaks are from animals that were put down due to a leg injury?
        virmundi 9y ago
        No, OP said that it would be a waste to not use the meat from such animals. To the child of that person's comment, there is a presumption that a non-poisonous method was used such as hammer or bolt-gun.
        HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
        That won't happen. If the horse has to be euthanized, unless it happens far from vet care (say on a distant trail ride), it's going to be given a lethal dose of sedative. If it does happen far from care, then it'll be most likely shot in the head and the carcass burned or left for predators if it's not possible to dig a pit for it. Source: live on a horse farm and have had to deal with weak or dead horses.
kajecounterhack 9y ago
>The difference is whales are not sustenance and are not something most Japanese would eat or enjoy to eat. Wow this is presumptuous, whale meat has a long history in Japan and whales have been used for sustenance for a long time. That they should not be sustenance is your opinion. Pigs are intelligent too. Unfortunately eating animals in general is fraught with moral quandary. Please stop making blanket statements about other peoples' cultures.
- nxsynonym 9y ago
  Intelligence aside, I see a difference between actively depleting a population and farming animals as a resource.
  - kajecounterhack 9y ago
    I'd have been ok with the parent post if it was about that, or if it was just stating an opinion and fairly treated the moral dilemma of eating intelligent meat. Instead it was like "I'm clearly not Japanese but I fancy its culture and its good good people don't want to eat whale meat" yeah, no.
- dTal 9y ago
  I'm not sure why you reacted so strongly to what is a statement of hard truth. Whale meat was used for sustenance for a few decades following WW2, because that's all there was. With the availability of other meat, demand has fallen radically. It's not a hugely integral part of their culture, nobody is surviving off of it anymore, and it is in fact the case that most people, including Japanese, don't find it especially palatable.
- LeifCarrotson 9y ago
  Whale products are no longer used as sustenance, they are a delicacy. Stopping the hunting of whales would not cause anyone (except those who sell whale meat) to suffer or go hungry.
mrkstu 9y ago
Agreed. I chimed in on an earlier article supporting eating meat- but higher mammals are a special case. Dolphins/Whales should be in the same category as Elephants and Apes. They are beings with complex social structures and individual personalities. They are not prey or husbandry animals, but apex animals. David Brin's Uplift novels make this point very well- these are our fellow travelers on the road to sentience. We just go there first. Eating these animals is brushing right up against cannibalism to me.
- phreeza 9y ago
  Why are elephants higher on the hierarchy than eg pigs?
  - kleer001 9y ago
    They're a keystone species, have culture and language (probably older than any human one), they mourn their dead, and on and on...
    - muninn_ 9y ago
      Apologies for being a bit pedantic, but I had never heard of the phrase 'keystone species' and went on to look it up. While an elephant could be (and perhaps is) a keystone species, I don't find that the status of being such a species is relevant for discussions on consciousness of animals because of what this term actually means and includes. Starfish, for example, could be considered a keystone species. Not trying to be a jerk or anything (I'm also a vegetarian) but just wanted to bring this up in case anybody else was a bit curious about what the term meant or had maybe heard of the term before and was confused as to why it was included here. I'm also clearly open to a arguments discussing why a keystone species is inherently conscious.
      - kleer001 9y ago
        Good catch. Keystone-ness has nothing to do with consciousness, of course. I was making a pile of reasons not to murder elephants.
blubb-fish 9y ago
> Whales are intelligent. They should not be killed by humans who mask the activities as scientific research. Okay, so killing intelligent animals is not okay. We need an international agreement that every whale has to undergo a little test before being harpooned. A whale has to be a bit stupid or retarded - then killing is morally justifiable.
astura 9y ago
I don't follow the logic of why intelligence should be the decider of "its ok to kill" over sentience. Octopuses are incredibly smart but eaten by most Japanese, sometimes even alive.
- kleer001 9y ago
  > Octopuses are incredibly smart They are, but their lives are so short they'll never develop language, culture, or any other kind of memetic structure for their species.
noobermin 9y ago
I generally agree with you, I'm not sure I agree with your framing. I more agree with you when you say whales are not something most Japanese would eat, so it doesn't make sense to put this on Japan as a country to move forward and stop killing whales. There are some unsavory people and practices in all countries and amongst all groups, and by that logic we all need to be better people. That said, that tax payer money might finance a new whaling ship might be closer to something you can pin on the government, so that's a valid concern I think.

sandworm101 9y ago

And orca are not really whales. They are big dolphins. The name "killer whale" means "killer of whales", whale killer ... blame the french for that swap. I downloaded a bbc show called "wild wales" expecting an epic doc about the sea. What i got was two guys in a camo tent feeding peanuts to squirrels. Language is hard.

logfromblammo 9y ago
Orcas, porpoises, and dolphins are toothed whales. I don't know what you mean by "real whale" if the definition does not include them. Whatever it is, if your definition includes pilot whales and sperm whales, it probably has to include the dolphin family, too.

ickwabe 9y ago

Agreed. As should Norway and Iceland.

irrational 9y ago
I feel the same way about horses. They serve horse steaks in Iceland (and probably other places) which I find equally as barbaric.
- dorchadas 9y ago
  The difference for me is that horses can be (and are) domesticated and raised for their meat. Nor are they necessarily endangered. If you find horsemeat barbaric, what about beef or chicken or pork? What about deer?
  - exclusiv 9y ago
    Horses are huge animals and often have to be put down for injuries to their legs. It's a shame to let meat go to waste. I don't know about killing horses in their prime though if that's what they do.
    - tgarv 9y ago
      You honestly think that most horse meat steaks are from animals that were put down due to a leg injury?
      - virmundi 9y ago
        No, OP said that it would be a waste to not use the meat from such animals. To the child of that person's comment, there is a presumption that a non-poisonous method was used such as hammer or bolt-gun.
        HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
        That won't happen. If the horse has to be euthanized, unless it happens far from vet care (say on a distant trail ride), it's going to be given a lethal dose of sedative. If it does happen far from care, then it'll be most likely shot in the head and the carcass burned or left for predators if it's not possible to dig a pit for it. Source: live on a horse farm and have had to deal with weak or dead horses.

kajecounterhack 9y ago

>The difference is whales are not sustenance and are not something most Japanese would eat or enjoy to eat. Wow this is presumptuous, whale meat has a long history in Japan and whales have been used for sustenance for a long time. That they should not be sustenance is your opinion. Pigs are intelligent too. Unfortunately eating animals in general is fraught with moral quandary. Please stop making blanket statements about other peoples' cultures.

nxsynonym 9y ago
Intelligence aside, I see a difference between actively depleting a population and farming animals as a resource.
- kajecounterhack 9y ago
  I'd have been ok with the parent post if it was about that, or if it was just stating an opinion and fairly treated the moral dilemma of eating intelligent meat. Instead it was like "I'm clearly not Japanese but I fancy its culture and its good good people don't want to eat whale meat" yeah, no.
dTal 9y ago
I'm not sure why you reacted so strongly to what is a statement of hard truth. Whale meat was used for sustenance for a few decades following WW2, because that's all there was. With the availability of other meat, demand has fallen radically. It's not a hugely integral part of their culture, nobody is surviving off of it anymore, and it is in fact the case that most people, including Japanese, don't find it especially palatable.
LeifCarrotson 9y ago
Whale products are no longer used as sustenance, they are a delicacy. Stopping the hunting of whales would not cause anyone (except those who sell whale meat) to suffer or go hungry.

mrkstu 9y ago

Agreed. I chimed in on an earlier article supporting eating meat- but higher mammals are a special case. Dolphins/Whales should be in the same category as Elephants and Apes. They are beings with complex social structures and individual personalities. They are not prey or husbandry animals, but apex animals. David Brin's Uplift novels make this point very well- these are our fellow travelers on the road to sentience. We just go there first. Eating these animals is brushing right up against cannibalism to me.

phreeza 9y ago
Why are elephants higher on the hierarchy than eg pigs?
- kleer001 9y ago
  They're a keystone species, have culture and language (probably older than any human one), they mourn their dead, and on and on...
  - muninn_ 9y ago
    Apologies for being a bit pedantic, but I had never heard of the phrase 'keystone species' and went on to look it up. While an elephant could be (and perhaps is) a keystone species, I don't find that the status of being such a species is relevant for discussions on consciousness of animals because of what this term actually means and includes. Starfish, for example, could be considered a keystone species. Not trying to be a jerk or anything (I'm also a vegetarian) but just wanted to bring this up in case anybody else was a bit curious about what the term meant or had maybe heard of the term before and was confused as to why it was included here. I'm also clearly open to a arguments discussing why a keystone species is inherently conscious.
    - kleer001 9y ago
      Good catch. Keystone-ness has nothing to do with consciousness, of course. I was making a pile of reasons not to murder elephants.

blubb-fish 9y ago

> Whales are intelligent. They should not be killed by humans who mask the activities as scientific research. Okay, so killing intelligent animals is not okay. We need an international agreement that every whale has to undergo a little test before being harpooned. A whale has to be a bit stupid or retarded - then killing is morally justifiable.

astura 9y ago

I don't follow the logic of why intelligence should be the decider of "its ok to kill" over sentience. Octopuses are incredibly smart but eaten by most Japanese, sometimes even alive.

kleer001 9y ago
> Octopuses are incredibly smart They are, but their lives are so short they'll never develop language, culture, or any other kind of memetic structure for their species.

noobermin 9y ago

I generally agree with you, I'm not sure I agree with your framing. I more agree with you when you say whales are not something most Japanese would eat, so it doesn't make sense to put this on Japan as a country to move forward and stop killing whales. There are some unsavory people and practices in all countries and amongst all groups, and by that logic we all need to be better people. That said, that tax payer money might finance a new whaling ship might be closer to something you can pin on the government, so that's a valid concern I think.