6 ms·

North Africans at that time were not "black" ; I thought that this was already well known? Was Libyan leader Gaddafi, black?

foldr 9y ago
It's not obvious to me that the cartoon character is unambiguously black rather than brown. Berbers and other North African groups that were well-represented in the Roman army have brown skin. In any case, Beard points to instances of Romans in Britain who were either described as having black skin ("Ethiopean") in the historical record, or whose skeletal morpholgy suggests Sub Saharan ancestry. Also, nothing is "well known" about the skin color of populations thousands of years ago, for obvious reasons.
- bloak 9y ago
  Can't you deduce skin colour from chemical analysis of bog bodies, or is melanin unstable in those conditions? Also, can't we deduce skin colour from analysis of DNA (and from the climate: sunlight affects skin colour)? Perhaps the problem is that scientists are not particularly interested in skin colour, for which I wouldn't blame them.
  - foldr 9y ago
    Not sure about bog bodies, but there's so few of them that it's unlikely to be useful information. There is no way to determine skin color via DNA analyses of ancient remains, so far as I'm aware.
    - foldr 9y ago
      Looks like I was wrong about DNA evidence and skin color: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/02/07/first-britons-black-natural-history-museum-dna-study-reveals/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/02/07/first-britons-...
vidarh 9y ago
This is a Tuareg berber boy [1]. The Tuareg moved South into the Sahel in antiquity, but their traditional areas included parts of modern day Algeria and Libya. Gaddafi was Bedouin, but their skin color varies greatly. I'll go out on a limb and assume that Gaddafi spent decades spending a lot less time outdoors in the sun than many other Bedouin would. Here is an example of a much darker Bedouin man [2]. Note, however, that the main Arabization of Libya happened after the Romans moved out. Berber men in Morocco [3]. Ghurara Berbers in Algeria [4] Toubou man - The Toubous traditional area stretch into Libya [5]. In case you would assume the Berbers whose main areas were in Southern Libya would not make it North, consider that Septimius Severus' hometown of Leptis Magna on the mediterranean coast was frequently raided by berbers until the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb in the 7th century. During Septimius rule a whole Roman legion (Legio III Augusta) was stationed there to protect against Berber raids (the legion was also been stationed in present day Algeria for a long time) Septimius also extended roman rule to Garama - one of the main homes of the Garamantes Berber people who shared Fezzan (the South West of Libya) with the Toubou, Arabs, Berbers, Tuareg and Dawada. Here's a Dawada man [6]. Now, I'm not an expert on the region, and I don't know the exact mix of Roman Libya and other Roman holdings in North Africa at the time, but the above is enough to at least suggest that unless you are an expert (in which case I welcome sources), there is sufficient reason to at least not jump to the conclusion that there were no dark skinned Africans in Libya in Roman times on the basis of Gadaffi - a person from an ethnic group that most certainly had a far lower presence in Libya until after Roman times. [1] https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/4603950662 https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/4603950662 [2] http://www.gotellitonthemountain.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Farashee-bread-Sinai-Go-tell-it-on-the-mountain_result.jpg http://www.gotellitonthemountain.net/wp-content/uploads/2014... [3] https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/photo/morocco-valley-of-roses-berber-men-singing-high-res-stock-photography/596242870 https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/photo/morocco-valley-of... [4] https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HVIPE5t6qvM/TxCq_VzQpaI/AAAAAAAAANE/40ZKOCrtQO4/s1600/Gourara.jpg https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HVIPE5t6qvM/TxCq_VzQpaI/AAAAAAAAA... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toubou_people#/media/File:Toubou_man_traveling.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toubou_people#/media/File:Toub... [6] http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/148807060-tuareg-tribesman-at-the-dawada-lakes-in-the-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=%2FSMeCbEIB30Lz9uIV4%2FMDrReT1wiHtlz7RWpCPKzATDOI1%2BUafYeWdHb5TLHLx42 http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/148807060-tuareg-tribesman-...
walshemj 9y ago
I suspect that a Libyan and Caribbean kid would be considered "black" in the western societies - just as likely to be stopped by the cops etc. face the same discrimination.
walshemj 9y ago
What about the aboriginal people living there? Some of the original colonists where not black yes - but over time there would have been considerable intermarriage.

foldr 9y ago

It's not obvious to me that the cartoon character is unambiguously black rather than brown. Berbers and other North African groups that were well-represented in the Roman army have brown skin. In any case, Beard points to instances of Romans in Britain who were either described as having black skin ("Ethiopean") in the historical record, or whose skeletal morpholgy suggests Sub Saharan ancestry. Also, nothing is "well known" about the skin color of populations thousands of years ago, for obvious reasons.

bloak 9y ago
Can't you deduce skin colour from chemical analysis of bog bodies, or is melanin unstable in those conditions? Also, can't we deduce skin colour from analysis of DNA (and from the climate: sunlight affects skin colour)? Perhaps the problem is that scientists are not particularly interested in skin colour, for which I wouldn't blame them.
- foldr 9y ago
  Not sure about bog bodies, but there's so few of them that it's unlikely to be useful information. There is no way to determine skin color via DNA analyses of ancient remains, so far as I'm aware.
  - foldr 9y ago
    Looks like I was wrong about DNA evidence and skin color: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/02/07/first-britons-black-natural-history-museum-dna-study-reveals/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/02/07/first-britons-...

vidarh 9y ago

This is a Tuareg berber boy [1]. The Tuareg moved South into the Sahel in antiquity, but their traditional areas included parts of modern day Algeria and Libya. Gaddafi was Bedouin, but their skin color varies greatly. I'll go out on a limb and assume that Gaddafi spent decades spending a lot less time outdoors in the sun than many other Bedouin would. Here is an example of a much darker Bedouin man [2]. Note, however, that the main Arabization of Libya happened after the Romans moved out. Berber men in Morocco [3]. Ghurara Berbers in Algeria [4] Toubou man - The Toubous traditional area stretch into Libya [5]. In case you would assume the Berbers whose main areas were in Southern Libya would not make it North, consider that Septimius Severus' hometown of Leptis Magna on the mediterranean coast was frequently raided by berbers until the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb in the 7th century. During Septimius rule a whole Roman legion (Legio III Augusta) was stationed there to protect against Berber raids (the legion was also been stationed in present day Algeria for a long time) Septimius also extended roman rule to Garama - one of the main homes of the Garamantes Berber people who shared Fezzan (the South West of Libya) with the Toubou, Arabs, Berbers, Tuareg and Dawada. Here's a Dawada man [6]. Now, I'm not an expert on the region, and I don't know the exact mix of Roman Libya and other Roman holdings in North Africa at the time, but the above is enough to at least suggest that unless you are an expert (in which case I welcome sources), there is sufficient reason to at least not jump to the conclusion that there were no dark skinned Africans in Libya in Roman times on the basis of Gadaffi - a person from an ethnic group that most certainly had a far lower presence in Libya until after Roman times. [1] https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/4603950662 https://www.flickr.com/photos/ingetjetadros/4603950662 [2] http://www.gotellitonthemountain.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Farashee-bread-Sinai-Go-tell-it-on-the-mountain_result.jpg http://www.gotellitonthemountain.net/wp-content/uploads/2014... [3] https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/photo/morocco-valley-of-roses-berber-men-singing-high-res-stock-photography/596242870 https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/photo/morocco-valley-of... [4] https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HVIPE5t6qvM/TxCq_VzQpaI/AAAAAAAAANE/40ZKOCrtQO4/s1600/Gourara.jpg https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HVIPE5t6qvM/TxCq_VzQpaI/AAAAAAAAA... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toubou_people#/media/File:Toubou_man_traveling.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toubou_people#/media/File:Toub... [6] http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/148807060-tuareg-tribesman-at-the-dawada-lakes-in-the-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=%2FSMeCbEIB30Lz9uIV4%2FMDrReT1wiHtlz7RWpCPKzATDOI1%2BUafYeWdHb5TLHLx42 http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/148807060-tuareg-tribesman-...

walshemj 9y ago

I suspect that a Libyan and Caribbean kid would be considered "black" in the western societies - just as likely to be stopped by the cops etc. face the same discrimination.

walshemj 9y ago

What about the aboriginal people living there? Some of the original colonists where not black yes - but over time there would have been considerable intermarriage.