9 ms·

Nassim Taleb on his interactions with Mary Beard: https://medium.com/east-med-project-history-philology-and-genetics/something-is-broken-in-the-uk-intellectual

by sien 9y ago

Nassim Taleb on his interactions with Mary Beard: https://medium.com/east-med-project-history-philology-and-genetics/something-is-broken-in-the-uk-intellectual-sphere-7efc9a1f154a https://medium.com/east-med-project-history-philology-and-ge...

iainmerrick 9y ago
Taleb isn't painting himself in a very flattering light with these attacks. They're very weird and bitter. And I can't tell what his actual point is! He furiously complains that the BBC and Mary Beard are "bullshitters" but I can't figure out exactly what corrections he wants made.
- Red_Tarsius 9y ago
  > I can't figure out exactly what corrections he wants made. The UK intellectual sphere shouldn't misrepresent history to suit modern sensibilities.
  - foldr 9y ago
    Beard is an expert on the history of the Roman Empire, and says that this is not a misrepresentation. She wrote a good article about it here: https://www.the-tls.co.uk/roman-britain-black-white/ https://www.the-tls.co.uk/roman-britain-black-white/
    - bergoid 9y ago
      > Beard is an expert on the history of the Roman Empire, and says that this is not a misrepresentation. Her academic credentials are the very reason why she got criticized for what she said. Saying that the BBC school video is accurate is an extraordinary claim. And as a historian you might want to back that up with some evidence. > She wrote a good article about it here: > https://www.the-tls.co.uk/roman-britain-black-white/ https://www.the-tls.co.uk/roman-britain-black-white/ In which she dwells on twitter bullying and provides zero evidence for her claims.
      - foldr 9y ago
        She points to the actual historical figure who the cartoon character is most likely based on.
- bergoid 9y ago
  > Taleb isn't painting himself in a very flattering light with these attacks. They're very weird and bitter. This is his default style as a polemicist and it distracts indeed from the points he is trying to make. > And I can't tell what his actual point is! The first 3 bullet points are his actual message. The rest is a reaction to some preceding drama on twitter. His point is basically that Africans were a statistically insignificant subgroup among Romans in Brittain, and by adding them so prominently in a short animated cartoon for school children (who hardly know anything about antiquity) the BBC is performing historical revisionism. He also casts doubt on the assumption that these Africans were black, pointing out that Northern Africa was inhabited by Berbers and Phoenicians. > He furiously complains that the BBC and Mary Beard are "bullshitters" but I can't figure out exactly what corrections he wants made. He wants scientific rigor to prevail over political correctness.
  - foldr 9y ago
    We have no reliable evidence regarding what proportion of Roman Britain was "black". We have good historical evidence that there were Romans present in Britain who we'd these days describe as black (e.g. an Ethiopian soldier garrisoning Hadrian's wall). For 101 reasons, the genetic evidence is not very informative, and certainly can't be used to justify that claim that Africans were a "statistically insignificant subgroup" (which by the way doesn't even make sense as a statistical statement). As Beard points out, even Norman DNA is not very well represented in the modern population, and we know for sure that plenty of Normans came over as a result of the Norman invasion.
    - patrickg_zill 9y ago
      In the depicted cartoon case of an Ethiopian that has a local Briton or Celt wife, who has multiple children with her, there is the valid question of seeing what is in the genetic record, though, wouldn't you agree? The reaction, and Beard's answer, was specifically about the family shown and not the narrow question of whether or not an Ethiopian conscript would have ever set foot in Roman Britain.
      - 9y ago
- coldtea 9y ago
  >but I can't figure out exactly what corrections he wants made. He wants accuracy in historical depictions, not over-representation of (insignificant at the time and place) populations the way they do in stock photos to show how "diverse" a company is. He also doesn't like the historical revisionism of considering all the people coming from Africa or called african in Roman years as black, whereas the whole northern Africa was full of white populations. Those were not Ethiopians, Nubians, etc... It's bad that the English were racist and colonialists, but that's their problem. They don't get to say their "sorry" today (after the fact) to the black people, by washing out whole populations of Mediterranean people, that were actually there at the Roman era, because they want to feature more prominently some populations they put down.
  - foldr 9y ago
    >whereas the whole northern Africa was full of white populations Citation very much needed.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      You can read pretty much any historical account describing the peoples of those regions, see frescoes and mosaics, and so on. Besides, this couldn't be more racist towards Mediterranean people - perhaps they all look black to some. It wouldn't be the first time, mediterranean people (from Lebanese and Egyptians, to Italians, Greeks and Spanish) were also classified as "non-white" when immigrating into the US by racist WASP populations.
      - foldr 9y ago
        No-one is suggesting that everyone or even the majority of people in North Africa have "black" skin, but I'm awaiting references showing that North Africa was majority white at the time of the Roman empire. The guy in the cartoon has brown skin.
        coldtea 9y ago
        White as in not black. Not as in red-haired blue-eyed WASPs. Of course it can have "brown skin". Egyptians, Tunisians, and co, including people in Souther Spain, Greece, Italy, Lebanon, the Middle East, and so, had, and still have brown skin, but are not black like e.g. Ethiopians (which ancients also describe), nor are depicted as such.
dtornabene 9y ago
Taleb doesn't exactly cover himself with glory there. He's also not a specialist in the field.
- nimish 9y ago
  Taleb also has a bit of a racial obsession with proving his own racial purity and distinction. He's not a disinterested actor.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    I can't make this out; his style contains an awful lot of "this guy is a racist" markers for someone who's Lebanese.
    - syllogism 9y ago
      He's reflexively contrarian. It informs his reactions to things much more than any type of in-group loyalty.
      - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
        That must be exhausting, poor guy.
      - nimish 9y ago
        Not really. He really does have an obsession with proving that his particular ancestry (Lebanese/'Levantine') is distinct from and pure regarding Arabic ancestry. To the point he wants to make some historical assertions that are not at all supported by fact.
        dtornabene 9y ago
        I've seen this said now multiple times in multiple places by what I'm pretty sure are ideologically disjoint groups of people, and I gotta say, it makes me glad I skipped alot of his work. Racism is a hell of a drug. Was just talking with my mom this very morning about the anti italian racism in the early 20th century in the US and the subsequent change in perception of italians (especially southern, which I partially am) as "white". David Roediger wrote an excellent book on this from a labor standpoint, I need to finish it soon......
Red_Tarsius 9y ago
Nassim Taleb criticized Mary Beard for supporting the historical revisionism of the BBC. – "An exploration of life in Roman Britain shown through the eyes of a typical family." http://i.imgur.com/tg25juJ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/tg25juJ.jpg – Sub-Saharan Celts http://i.imgur.com/WSHbj36.png http://i.imgur.com/WSHbj36.png – A Sub-Saharan English Nobleman, 1215AD http://i.imgur.com/Y5WFtXO.png http://i.imgur.com/Y5WFtXO.png – A North-African Norman priest http://i.imgur.com/5JHBzMN.png http://i.imgur.com/5JHBzMN.png – A Sub-Saharan blacksmith, Iron Age Britain http://i.imgur.com/XptrQDP.png http://i.imgur.com/XptrQDP.png This is far from an isolated incident. Since then, the channel also casted SA Achilles, Zeus and Aeneas (the ancestor of Romulus and Remus).
- ZeroGravitas 9y ago
  And weirdly, they continue to pretend to children of the UK that humans from all over the globe and all through time speak perfectly understandable English. And don't get me started on the talking animals. British zoological research is unlikely to ever recover if they can't get basic details like that right.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    There should really be an Attenborough version of Finding Nemo where his mate switches genders and fornicates with his daughters, like any self-respecting clownfish would do.

by sien 9y ago

iainmerrick 9y ago

Taleb isn't painting himself in a very flattering light with these attacks. They're very weird and bitter. And I can't tell what his actual point is! He furiously complains that the BBC and Mary Beard are "bullshitters" but I can't figure out exactly what corrections he wants made.

Red_Tarsius 9y ago
> I can't figure out exactly what corrections he wants made. The UK intellectual sphere shouldn't misrepresent history to suit modern sensibilities.
- foldr 9y ago
  Beard is an expert on the history of the Roman Empire, and says that this is not a misrepresentation. She wrote a good article about it here: https://www.the-tls.co.uk/roman-britain-black-white/ https://www.the-tls.co.uk/roman-britain-black-white/
  - bergoid 9y ago
    > Beard is an expert on the history of the Roman Empire, and says that this is not a misrepresentation. Her academic credentials are the very reason why she got criticized for what she said. Saying that the BBC school video is accurate is an extraordinary claim. And as a historian you might want to back that up with some evidence. > She wrote a good article about it here: > https://www.the-tls.co.uk/roman-britain-black-white/ https://www.the-tls.co.uk/roman-britain-black-white/ In which she dwells on twitter bullying and provides zero evidence for her claims.
    - foldr 9y ago
      She points to the actual historical figure who the cartoon character is most likely based on.
bergoid 9y ago
> Taleb isn't painting himself in a very flattering light with these attacks. They're very weird and bitter. This is his default style as a polemicist and it distracts indeed from the points he is trying to make. > And I can't tell what his actual point is! The first 3 bullet points are his actual message. The rest is a reaction to some preceding drama on twitter. His point is basically that Africans were a statistically insignificant subgroup among Romans in Brittain, and by adding them so prominently in a short animated cartoon for school children (who hardly know anything about antiquity) the BBC is performing historical revisionism. He also casts doubt on the assumption that these Africans were black, pointing out that Northern Africa was inhabited by Berbers and Phoenicians. > He furiously complains that the BBC and Mary Beard are "bullshitters" but I can't figure out exactly what corrections he wants made. He wants scientific rigor to prevail over political correctness.
- foldr 9y ago
  We have no reliable evidence regarding what proportion of Roman Britain was "black". We have good historical evidence that there were Romans present in Britain who we'd these days describe as black (e.g. an Ethiopian soldier garrisoning Hadrian's wall). For 101 reasons, the genetic evidence is not very informative, and certainly can't be used to justify that claim that Africans were a "statistically insignificant subgroup" (which by the way doesn't even make sense as a statistical statement). As Beard points out, even Norman DNA is not very well represented in the modern population, and we know for sure that plenty of Normans came over as a result of the Norman invasion.
  - patrickg_zill 9y ago
    In the depicted cartoon case of an Ethiopian that has a local Briton or Celt wife, who has multiple children with her, there is the valid question of seeing what is in the genetic record, though, wouldn't you agree? The reaction, and Beard's answer, was specifically about the family shown and not the narrow question of whether or not an Ethiopian conscript would have ever set foot in Roman Britain.
    - 9y ago
coldtea 9y ago
>but I can't figure out exactly what corrections he wants made. He wants accuracy in historical depictions, not over-representation of (insignificant at the time and place) populations the way they do in stock photos to show how "diverse" a company is. He also doesn't like the historical revisionism of considering all the people coming from Africa or called african in Roman years as black, whereas the whole northern Africa was full of white populations. Those were not Ethiopians, Nubians, etc... It's bad that the English were racist and colonialists, but that's their problem. They don't get to say their "sorry" today (after the fact) to the black people, by washing out whole populations of Mediterranean people, that were actually there at the Roman era, because they want to feature more prominently some populations they put down.
- foldr 9y ago
  >whereas the whole northern Africa was full of white populations Citation very much needed.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    You can read pretty much any historical account describing the peoples of those regions, see frescoes and mosaics, and so on. Besides, this couldn't be more racist towards Mediterranean people - perhaps they all look black to some. It wouldn't be the first time, mediterranean people (from Lebanese and Egyptians, to Italians, Greeks and Spanish) were also classified as "non-white" when immigrating into the US by racist WASP populations.
    - foldr 9y ago
      No-one is suggesting that everyone or even the majority of people in North Africa have "black" skin, but I'm awaiting references showing that North Africa was majority white at the time of the Roman empire. The guy in the cartoon has brown skin.
      - coldtea 9y ago
        White as in not black. Not as in red-haired blue-eyed WASPs. Of course it can have "brown skin". Egyptians, Tunisians, and co, including people in Souther Spain, Greece, Italy, Lebanon, the Middle East, and so, had, and still have brown skin, but are not black like e.g. Ethiopians (which ancients also describe), nor are depicted as such.

dtornabene 9y ago

Taleb doesn't exactly cover himself with glory there. He's also not a specialist in the field.

nimish 9y ago
Taleb also has a bit of a racial obsession with proving his own racial purity and distinction. He's not a disinterested actor.
- pjc50 9y ago
  I can't make this out; his style contains an awful lot of "this guy is a racist" markers for someone who's Lebanese.
  - syllogism 9y ago
    He's reflexively contrarian. It informs his reactions to things much more than any type of in-group loyalty.
    - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
      That must be exhausting, poor guy.
    - nimish 9y ago
      Not really. He really does have an obsession with proving that his particular ancestry (Lebanese/'Levantine') is distinct from and pure regarding Arabic ancestry. To the point he wants to make some historical assertions that are not at all supported by fact.
      - dtornabene 9y ago
        I've seen this said now multiple times in multiple places by what I'm pretty sure are ideologically disjoint groups of people, and I gotta say, it makes me glad I skipped alot of his work. Racism is a hell of a drug. Was just talking with my mom this very morning about the anti italian racism in the early 20th century in the US and the subsequent change in perception of italians (especially southern, which I partially am) as "white". David Roediger wrote an excellent book on this from a labor standpoint, I need to finish it soon......

Red_Tarsius 9y ago

Nassim Taleb criticized Mary Beard for supporting the historical revisionism of the BBC. – "An exploration of life in Roman Britain shown through the eyes of a typical family." http://i.imgur.com/tg25juJ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/tg25juJ.jpg – Sub-Saharan Celts http://i.imgur.com/WSHbj36.png http://i.imgur.com/WSHbj36.png – A Sub-Saharan English Nobleman, 1215AD http://i.imgur.com/Y5WFtXO.png http://i.imgur.com/Y5WFtXO.png – A North-African Norman priest http://i.imgur.com/5JHBzMN.png http://i.imgur.com/5JHBzMN.png – A Sub-Saharan blacksmith, Iron Age Britain http://i.imgur.com/XptrQDP.png http://i.imgur.com/XptrQDP.png This is far from an isolated incident. Since then, the channel also casted SA Achilles, Zeus and Aeneas (the ancestor of Romulus and Remus).

ZeroGravitas 9y ago
And weirdly, they continue to pretend to children of the UK that humans from all over the globe and all through time speak perfectly understandable English. And don't get me started on the talking animals. British zoological research is unlikely to ever recover if they can't get basic details like that right.
- matt4077 9y ago
  There should really be an Attenborough version of Finding Nemo where his mate switches genders and fornicates with his daughters, like any self-respecting clownfish would do.