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It’s great that unions got us weekends off and ended child labor. Thanks unions! But that was a century ago. What have they done for us lately besides bankrupt

It’s great that unions got us weekends off and ended child labor. Thanks unions! But that was a century ago. What have they done for us lately besides bankrupt state pension systems?

djsumdog 9y ago
The states bankrupted their own pension systems by borrowing against them. That money was there, it was promised early on and it was funded by bonds. If the city starts to run out of money, borrowing from a pension is not the fault of the worker. It's the fault of the god damn fucking state. The money was there. If you fell short because the market shrunk and you told your workers it was privately vested in mutual funds, that's fine and just pay out everyone less. But most cities and states backed them by bonds and then borrowed against pensions when they started running out of money thinking they could make it up later. What the actual fuck?! No. You're not going to be able to do that. You're an idiot mayor/governor for even thinking that. Leave money that isn't yours alone.
- DannyBee 9y ago
  " That money was there, it was promised early on and it was funded by bonds." This is not factually accurate, in the sense that nothing could have stopped this in a bunch of states. The rate of pension payout growth in a bunch of states is far above what they could ever pay back, no matter what the investment and how well funded. It was only a matter of time. (and the union response in most cases was .... not great) It's certainly not the case everywhere, but definitely the case in some places. You are basically arguing that the problem with a ponzi scheme is that they did invest enough up front and leave it alone.
ajsharp 9y ago
This is some next-level privileged snark. Your attitude is remarkably selfish and closed-minded. I want to live in your bubble.
- dang 9y ago
  Please don't respond to a bad comment with a worse one, such as a personal attack. That takes the site in just the wrong direction. That's why the HN guidelines explicitly ask you not to do this, but instead to flag egregious comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
kevingadd 9y ago
Weird how the pension system is the responsibility of the state to operate, but somehow when the state doesn't put enough money in it, it's the union's fault.
- DannyBee 9y ago
  You act as if this is one sided. States need to fund them for sure. But you can't have a liability that grows faster than it can be funded. When states push on larger contributions, unions need to not essentially blackmail states into bankruptcy. We'll stop working now if you don't kick the can down the road. I have never seen a state that funded them properly but i have never seen a union that acted like they understood (i'm sure they understand, they just look out for their members) that if you are paying out pensions at a unsustainably growing rate, everyone loses.
  - lovich 9y ago
    Same argument could be applied to corporations and pollution. They understand it's destroying the environment but they are looking out for their profits and everyone loses. As many comments like this in this thread have shown, the arguments for and against unions can be applied wholesale for corporations. Why is it that everyone gets something stuck in their craw when it's labor that's pooling it's power and not capital? Hell if you were super laissez faire capitalism like some libertarians you shouldn't care at all as it's consenting adults joining a contract together
    - DannyBee 9y ago
      What makes you think i think the state of corporations running things is great? :) I just don't think unions actually solve any problem in that realm, and any problem they could solve, i believe there are more effective, less risky, less problematic ways of doing.
  - kevingadd 9y ago
    Whether a pension is sustainable into the future is something you should factor in before committing to operate and provide pensions. It's obscene to make that commitment and then back out later and expect everyone to be OK with their retirement fund evaporating. If you hadn't lied and set up the pension, they would have had advance notice that their retirement is entirely up to them. Instead, they get screwed out of their retirement and somehow the unions are the villains for fighting that.
fjsolwmv 9y ago
So you want to go back to child labor on weekends?
dang 9y ago
Please don't post snarkily on divisive topics. It degrades discussion and leads to worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It’s great that unions got us weekends off and ended child labor. Thanks unions! But that was a century ago. What have they done for us lately besides bankrupt state pension systems?

djsumdog 9y ago

The states bankrupted their own pension systems by borrowing against them. That money was there, it was promised early on and it was funded by bonds. If the city starts to run out of money, borrowing from a pension is not the fault of the worker. It's the fault of the god damn fucking state. The money was there. If you fell short because the market shrunk and you told your workers it was privately vested in mutual funds, that's fine and just pay out everyone less. But most cities and states backed them by bonds and then borrowed against pensions when they started running out of money thinking they could make it up later. What the actual fuck?! No. You're not going to be able to do that. You're an idiot mayor/governor for even thinking that. Leave money that isn't yours alone.

DannyBee 9y ago
" That money was there, it was promised early on and it was funded by bonds." This is not factually accurate, in the sense that nothing could have stopped this in a bunch of states. The rate of pension payout growth in a bunch of states is far above what they could ever pay back, no matter what the investment and how well funded. It was only a matter of time. (and the union response in most cases was .... not great) It's certainly not the case everywhere, but definitely the case in some places. You are basically arguing that the problem with a ponzi scheme is that they did invest enough up front and leave it alone.

ajsharp 9y ago

This is some next-level privileged snark. Your attitude is remarkably selfish and closed-minded. I want to live in your bubble.

dang 9y ago
Please don't respond to a bad comment with a worse one, such as a personal attack. That takes the site in just the wrong direction. That's why the HN guidelines explicitly ask you not to do this, but instead to flag egregious comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

kevingadd 9y ago

Weird how the pension system is the responsibility of the state to operate, but somehow when the state doesn't put enough money in it, it's the union's fault.

DannyBee 9y ago
You act as if this is one sided. States need to fund them for sure. But you can't have a liability that grows faster than it can be funded. When states push on larger contributions, unions need to not essentially blackmail states into bankruptcy. We'll stop working now if you don't kick the can down the road. I have never seen a state that funded them properly but i have never seen a union that acted like they understood (i'm sure they understand, they just look out for their members) that if you are paying out pensions at a unsustainably growing rate, everyone loses.
- lovich 9y ago
  Same argument could be applied to corporations and pollution. They understand it's destroying the environment but they are looking out for their profits and everyone loses. As many comments like this in this thread have shown, the arguments for and against unions can be applied wholesale for corporations. Why is it that everyone gets something stuck in their craw when it's labor that's pooling it's power and not capital? Hell if you were super laissez faire capitalism like some libertarians you shouldn't care at all as it's consenting adults joining a contract together
  - DannyBee 9y ago
    What makes you think i think the state of corporations running things is great? :) I just don't think unions actually solve any problem in that realm, and any problem they could solve, i believe there are more effective, less risky, less problematic ways of doing.
- kevingadd 9y ago
  Whether a pension is sustainable into the future is something you should factor in before committing to operate and provide pensions. It's obscene to make that commitment and then back out later and expect everyone to be OK with their retirement fund evaporating. If you hadn't lied and set up the pension, they would have had advance notice that their retirement is entirely up to them. Instead, they get screwed out of their retirement and somehow the unions are the villains for fighting that.

fjsolwmv 9y ago

So you want to go back to child labor on weekends?

dang 9y ago

Please don't post snarkily on divisive topics. It degrades discussion and leads to worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html