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Prior version of the system used PowerBuilder. That figures. My fly-by of PowerBuilder 20 years ago made a deep impression. Like, I never wanted to even think

by kabdib 9y ago

Prior version of the system used PowerBuilder. That figures. My fly-by of PowerBuilder 20 years ago made a deep impression. Like, I never wanted to even think about that hunk of garbage again. It's right up there with PeopleSoft. If you're ever offered an opportunity to work with these systems, just run away. The state didn't know how to buy or develop software then, and it doesn't know how to buy or develop software today.

hinkley 9y ago
I worry that nobody who hires a contractor has the slightest clue how to develop software. After working contracts off and on for a while. I’m starting to think of “we need a contractor” as an open admission of guilt.
BHSPitMonkey 9y ago
> If you're ever offered an opportunity to work with these systems, just run away. And we wonder why the only bidders on these projects are frauds.
j45 9y ago
Experienced developers know that a mess can be made in any platform. One issue with a position and maligning statement like the above against any platform is that it actually enables said charlatans to charge way more for a sub standard developer base who end up being over paid, because skilled developers are not as readily available to fix, and ideally refactor the system. Hardest of all to imagine is systems that have had legitimately tens of millions of dollars of mission critical and hardened infrastructure that manage more complexity than many of us will ever handle.. are written in platforms like Powerbuilder. I have personally never used Powerbuilder. I know some ace developers who spent a lot of time (among other things) using Powerbuilder and they have said it's like any other language or framework - lots of messes, some good stuff too. Still, I won't ever stop noticing the kinds of hateful comments people throw at others because of what stack they work in. It's sheer overlooking of opportunities. Comments like the above are like saying all wood is bad because we saw a house built poorly out of wood. This approach excludes folks from the real huge innovation projects that are coming due as these platforms and projects are gradually renewed or refactored.
- kabdib 9y ago
  I've worked with many programming environments, and PowerBuilder stands out as one of the worst. I remember exchanging emails and doing phone calls with the developers about some howling bad bugs in their COM support, bad enough that we wound up ditching PB despite the market it represented. Judging from the bugs I was finding and the release notes that I was reading (which covered issues that included how to avoid writing code that would crash the compiler), PB was a mess under the hood. I don't abide by broken tools, but I do respect humility and realize that bugs and flawed designs happen. However, I will have no truck with companies that ship buggy, crashy products and then do the whole "manage customer expectations" dance in an obvious attempt to avoid remedial engineering. When I used it, the product was several major releases old, and they seemed to think they could trade workarounds and sophistry for fixing bugs. Hateful? Probably. Undeserved? Definitely not.
  - j45 9y ago
    I agree Powerbuilder isn't the best tech - the point I was trying to make is every tech has it's pro's and cons, and older techs have more to maintain while trying to stay current and get ahead, just like newer platforms can suffer from a lack of maturity. Powerbuilder didn't do itself any favors by trying to rest on it's existing marketshare. The kind of hair pulling I heard from buddies working on otherwise interesting systems in PB was quite deep, several nights a week in it's height. The issue of using an older version of PB seemed to make things worse. Still, it seems relevant to look at a technology in it's time compared to what else was available, and wonder if this is where today's language+framework apologists may end up in the future when one could no longer explain away their current favorite platform in 2018 as a flavour de jour. My last comment is not not directed at you in any way - You articulated a depth of experience: Opinions based on hearsay or surface interactions about a tech is not much different in the venom spread than than judging a group on the color of their skin based on one interaction and an underlying propensity to find fault. It's harsh, but maybe it's not recognizable that it's a similar muscle.
  - daemin 9y ago
    A friend of mine actually build a PowerBuilder decompiler and custom debugger, partly because he's smart, and partly because he was bored and had to maintain PowerBuilder projects. I think he said at one time the developers contacted him regarding a bug.

by kabdib 9y ago

hinkley 9y ago

I worry that nobody who hires a contractor has the slightest clue how to develop software. After working contracts off and on for a while. I’m starting to think of “we need a contractor” as an open admission of guilt.

BHSPitMonkey 9y ago

> If you're ever offered an opportunity to work with these systems, just run away. And we wonder why the only bidders on these projects are frauds.

j45 9y ago

Experienced developers know that a mess can be made in any platform. One issue with a position and maligning statement like the above against any platform is that it actually enables said charlatans to charge way more for a sub standard developer base who end up being over paid, because skilled developers are not as readily available to fix, and ideally refactor the system. Hardest of all to imagine is systems that have had legitimately tens of millions of dollars of mission critical and hardened infrastructure that manage more complexity than many of us will ever handle.. are written in platforms like Powerbuilder. I have personally never used Powerbuilder. I know some ace developers who spent a lot of time (among other things) using Powerbuilder and they have said it's like any other language or framework - lots of messes, some good stuff too. Still, I won't ever stop noticing the kinds of hateful comments people throw at others because of what stack they work in. It's sheer overlooking of opportunities. Comments like the above are like saying all wood is bad because we saw a house built poorly out of wood. This approach excludes folks from the real huge innovation projects that are coming due as these platforms and projects are gradually renewed or refactored.

kabdib 9y ago
I've worked with many programming environments, and PowerBuilder stands out as one of the worst. I remember exchanging emails and doing phone calls with the developers about some howling bad bugs in their COM support, bad enough that we wound up ditching PB despite the market it represented. Judging from the bugs I was finding and the release notes that I was reading (which covered issues that included how to avoid writing code that would crash the compiler), PB was a mess under the hood. I don't abide by broken tools, but I do respect humility and realize that bugs and flawed designs happen. However, I will have no truck with companies that ship buggy, crashy products and then do the whole "manage customer expectations" dance in an obvious attempt to avoid remedial engineering. When I used it, the product was several major releases old, and they seemed to think they could trade workarounds and sophistry for fixing bugs. Hateful? Probably. Undeserved? Definitely not.
- j45 9y ago
  I agree Powerbuilder isn't the best tech - the point I was trying to make is every tech has it's pro's and cons, and older techs have more to maintain while trying to stay current and get ahead, just like newer platforms can suffer from a lack of maturity. Powerbuilder didn't do itself any favors by trying to rest on it's existing marketshare. The kind of hair pulling I heard from buddies working on otherwise interesting systems in PB was quite deep, several nights a week in it's height. The issue of using an older version of PB seemed to make things worse. Still, it seems relevant to look at a technology in it's time compared to what else was available, and wonder if this is where today's language+framework apologists may end up in the future when one could no longer explain away their current favorite platform in 2018 as a flavour de jour. My last comment is not not directed at you in any way - You articulated a depth of experience: Opinions based on hearsay or surface interactions about a tech is not much different in the venom spread than than judging a group on the color of their skin based on one interaction and an underlying propensity to find fault. It's harsh, but maybe it's not recognizable that it's a similar muscle.
- daemin 9y ago
  A friend of mine actually build a PowerBuilder decompiler and custom debugger, partly because he's smart, and partly because he was bored and had to maintain PowerBuilder projects. I think he said at one time the developers contacted him regarding a bug.