8 ms·

You named some random things that have been around for short periods of time and claimed that "they won". I don't get it.

by jblow 9y ago

ryanmarsh 9y ago
Based upon momentum I believe the Electron based ecosystem has already won, yes. The momentum there eclipses... Eclipse, as well as many other closed and open source editors. If you don't see the Electron ecosystem as a winner today would you say they'll have won if all editors stay at their current momentum of new features and bug fixes?
- ovao 9y ago
  I think it’s fair enough to say that, from the perspective of community momentum and extension momentum, they’ve “won”, sure. It’s also fair to say that in many cases a user’s text editor doesn’t need quite that breadth of extensibility and/or feature-richness, and that winning that war (or battle) isn’t really all that important to at least some subset of users. That’s where Xi fits. It’s saying “these things we don’t get from other editors are important”. Users are free to decide which feature or attributes are most important to them. At the end of the day, users win!
- mattgreenrocks 9y ago
  How is it that text editors are all the sudden this weird competition where you have to win? I get what you're saying, but I think you worry too much about social proof and momentum. It's also grossly unfair to Xi, a project in its infancy. As you mentioned earlier, there is room for another great editor. If the same logic had been applied towards the Electron based editors a few years ago, you'd be arguing against them based on 'pragmatism' because Emacs/vim exists. What I'm trying to say is, people remember when you try to improve on things, even if you don't quite make it. Nobody remembers the guy commenting on a thread shooting it down. Decide which one you want to be.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    I wouldn't call it "winning" but you do need a big piece of the userbase to be relevant (when we are talking about text editors that are 90% plugins and 10% core, like Atom, Sublime, VsCode, Vim, Emacs...) When I write code in a language I don't find the best language plugin for language X in "my editor". Instead I search for "which editor has the best plugin for language X". And in most of the cases, the difference between different editors is much smaller than the difference in quality between language plugins. So basically, unless an editor "wins" (say becomes one of the top 5 most used) then there will be very few plugins for that text editor for the next thing that you need a plugin for. (And let's hope a non-electron editor is the next to gain that momentum.)
    - greglindahl 9y ago
      I have a different algorithm: Instead of asking "what editor has the best plugin for X", I just use emacs. If emacs isn't great at X when I start using it for X, it'll be there soon enough.
      - alkonaut 9y ago
        you picked one that is already in that top. Try that with the 100th most used editor. I disagree it’s worth sticking to on text editor for programming tasks. The productivity boost of a good complex plugin is huge, way bigger than anything one gets from productivity in the text editing itself that comes from familitarity with the editor I think. Look at the state of e.g Rust dev in Atom/VSCode/.. today. It will get there but it might be years for the one in spot #3 to reach the #1
        greglindahl 9y ago
        Your point exactly? You appear to either switch editors or consider switching on a regular basis, and I don't.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
- mschaef 9y ago
  What exactly does 'won' mean to you in this context? Other than the fact you're tying it to some vaguely positive notion around momentum, it's not at all obvious what claim you're making.
- euos 9y ago
  10 years ago Eclipse was most popular editor and was considered the best. Java, C++, PHP. Aptana, IBM IDEs and many more. And now it is pretty much gone.
  - jonnycomputer 9y ago
    I really wonder what you are basing this opinion on. The most recent stable release (Oxygen) was released last June, and Eclipse Che, their cloud IDE last October. In Stack Overflow's 2017 Developer 2017, 20% of Web Developers use Eclipse, 25% of Desktop developers use Eclipse, 22% of SysAdmins use Eclipse, and 27% of Data Scientists and Engineers use Eclipse.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    10 years ago everyone at my startup used emacs or vi. Today those same engineers still use emacs or vi. Did I miss something?
  - imron 9y ago
    I don't even know any C++ programmers who thought Eclipse was a good editor, let alone the best. That Eclipse is now pretty much gone only strengthens that position.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Based upon momentum I believe the Electron based ecosystem has already won, yes. Based upon momentum Nicky Minaj is better than John Coltrane. So there's that.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- jreck 9y ago
  Here, you can have your cake (electron) and eat it too (xi-core) https://github.com/acheronfail/xi-electron https://github.com/acheronfail/xi-electron
- mixmastamyk 9y ago
  Never actually seen anyone use Atom, too slow everyone on HN said.
  - dsego 9y ago
    I see a lot of coder chicks on instagram pose with atom & react on their screens. It's become a fashion.

You named some random things that have been around for short periods of time and claimed that "they won". I don't get it.

by jblow 9y ago

You named some random things that have been around for short periods of time and claimed that "they won". I don't get it.

ryanmarsh 9y ago

Based upon momentum I believe the Electron based ecosystem has already won, yes. The momentum there eclipses... Eclipse, as well as many other closed and open source editors. If you don't see the Electron ecosystem as a winner today would you say they'll have won if all editors stay at their current momentum of new features and bug fixes?

ovao 9y ago
I think it’s fair enough to say that, from the perspective of community momentum and extension momentum, they’ve “won”, sure. It’s also fair to say that in many cases a user’s text editor doesn’t need quite that breadth of extensibility and/or feature-richness, and that winning that war (or battle) isn’t really all that important to at least some subset of users. That’s where Xi fits. It’s saying “these things we don’t get from other editors are important”. Users are free to decide which feature or attributes are most important to them. At the end of the day, users win!
mattgreenrocks 9y ago
How is it that text editors are all the sudden this weird competition where you have to win? I get what you're saying, but I think you worry too much about social proof and momentum. It's also grossly unfair to Xi, a project in its infancy. As you mentioned earlier, there is room for another great editor. If the same logic had been applied towards the Electron based editors a few years ago, you'd be arguing against them based on 'pragmatism' because Emacs/vim exists. What I'm trying to say is, people remember when you try to improve on things, even if you don't quite make it. Nobody remembers the guy commenting on a thread shooting it down. Decide which one you want to be.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  I wouldn't call it "winning" but you do need a big piece of the userbase to be relevant (when we are talking about text editors that are 90% plugins and 10% core, like Atom, Sublime, VsCode, Vim, Emacs...) When I write code in a language I don't find the best language plugin for language X in "my editor". Instead I search for "which editor has the best plugin for language X". And in most of the cases, the difference between different editors is much smaller than the difference in quality between language plugins. So basically, unless an editor "wins" (say becomes one of the top 5 most used) then there will be very few plugins for that text editor for the next thing that you need a plugin for. (And let's hope a non-electron editor is the next to gain that momentum.)
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    I have a different algorithm: Instead of asking "what editor has the best plugin for X", I just use emacs. If emacs isn't great at X when I start using it for X, it'll be there soon enough.
    - alkonaut 9y ago
      you picked one that is already in that top. Try that with the 100th most used editor. I disagree it’s worth sticking to on text editor for programming tasks. The productivity boost of a good complex plugin is huge, way bigger than anything one gets from productivity in the text editing itself that comes from familitarity with the editor I think. Look at the state of e.g Rust dev in Atom/VSCode/.. today. It will get there but it might be years for the one in spot #3 to reach the #1
      - greglindahl 9y ago
        Your point exactly? You appear to either switch editors or consider switching on a regular basis, and I don't.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
mschaef 9y ago
What exactly does 'won' mean to you in this context? Other than the fact you're tying it to some vaguely positive notion around momentum, it's not at all obvious what claim you're making.
euos 9y ago
10 years ago Eclipse was most popular editor and was considered the best. Java, C++, PHP. Aptana, IBM IDEs and many more. And now it is pretty much gone.
- jonnycomputer 9y ago
  I really wonder what you are basing this opinion on. The most recent stable release (Oxygen) was released last June, and Eclipse Che, their cloud IDE last October. In Stack Overflow's 2017 Developer 2017, 20% of Web Developers use Eclipse, 25% of Desktop developers use Eclipse, 22% of SysAdmins use Eclipse, and 27% of Data Scientists and Engineers use Eclipse.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  10 years ago everyone at my startup used emacs or vi. Today those same engineers still use emacs or vi. Did I miss something?
- imron 9y ago
  I don't even know any C++ programmers who thought Eclipse was a good editor, let alone the best. That Eclipse is now pretty much gone only strengthens that position.
coldtea 9y ago
>Based upon momentum I believe the Electron based ecosystem has already won, yes. Based upon momentum Nicky Minaj is better than John Coltrane. So there's that.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
jreck 9y ago
Here, you can have your cake (electron) and eat it too (xi-core) https://github.com/acheronfail/xi-electron https://github.com/acheronfail/xi-electron
mixmastamyk 9y ago
Never actually seen anyone use Atom, too slow everyone on HN said.
- dsego 9y ago
  I see a lot of coder chicks on instagram pose with atom & react on their screens. It's become a fashion.