4 ms·

How does becoming more aware of the past mean everyone wants to be a victim? Part of learning about the past also involves learning about how past issues have

How does becoming more aware of the past mean everyone wants to be a victim? Part of learning about the past also involves learning about how past issues have carried us to where we are today and how sometimes the issues of the past still emerge in unexpected ways. The bigger issue is people wanting to continue being oblivious about how the past affects the present because it’s uncomfortable.

merpnderp 9y ago
No they see individuals blaming their poor choices on things which happened hundreds of years ago. If your parents didn't give two craps about your education and you did poorly in school, that is your parent's fault, who made a conscious choice. If you do the same to your children, it is your fault. And to blame something which happened hundreds of years ago, is to ensure this problem never gets resolved, because making poor choices is easy when you don't suffer the blame.
- alphabettsy 9y ago
  What exactly are you referring to? If we’re talking in the context of education, it’s well-established that education in this country is not equal. The factors including race and class that led to this have their roots in historical factors, yet a solution must be found as the issues exist today. What exactly happened hundreds of years ago that you’re referring to?
wahern 9y ago
Victimhood is becoming fetishized in our culture. To the extent it's fetishized, it results in the objectification of people, shifts attention away from substantive issues, and can provide cover for outright avoiding necessary change. It's similar to how conservative Christians have fetishized Jews and Israel, which is partly a result of conservatives latching onto this victimhood trend--victimhood by proxy. I used to work for a pro-Israel non-profit foreign policy think tank. Much of the staff was Jewish, and a significant portion (though by no means the majority) of operating funds came from Christian Evangelical donors. My manager once recounted a trip to a Christian Evangelical conference. One of the booths had a Shofar, a ram's horn traditionally used in Jewish religious services. People were lining up to blow it. The whole scene in full context came across to him as very... let's say crass and awkward and perhaps borderline racist. He wasn't personally offended and wouldn't have considered it "wrong", per se, but I think it suffices as an example of how fetishization of status and identity can result in recapitulating the same sins that ostensibly drew attention, interest, and sympathy. I think the previous poster's point was that because our culture fetishizes victimhood, our culture incentivizes people to identify with victimized groups who really have no understanding of either the historical or, especially, modern persecution of the group, and especially the most worse off in the group (no group is homogenous). They co-opt the identity and then purport to opine on social and political issues from a privileged position, often to the detriment of the most worse off individuals in the group. Eventually self-appointed supporters and defenders begin to do the same thing. There's a fine line between drawing attention to legitimate social issues by popularizing group identity, and the broader culture wresting the autonomy and self-determination of a group. Native Americans, perhaps more than any other minority group in this country, should be aware of this phenomenon, as every red-blooded American with a 5th grade education purports to understand the mistreatment of Native American tribes, and yet our laws to this day often continue to get worse! It's great that many, say, victims of sexual assault and sexual harassment can now find _empowerment_ in open association with other similarly harmed individuals. But make no mistake, the broader culture (of both men and women) has already begun co-opting this particular trend. It's always two steps forward, one step back.
- eesmith 9y ago
  I don't see where "victimhood by proxy" fits into your example. I thought the Christian Evangelical support of Jews and Israel was more from other reasons. I was brought up in a strongly Christian family. When I think of a shofar, the first thing that comes to mind is the Battle of Jericho. I can totally see why someone would want to blow in a shofar because of its Biblical associations. Some Evangelical Christians support Israel because of Christian Zionism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism . Quoting from there: > Christian believers are instructed by Scripture to acknowledge the Hebraic roots of their faith and to actively assist and participate in the plan of God for the Ingathering of the Jewish People and the Restoration of the nation of Israel in our day. The end goal is that this is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the world. Where does a fetishized victimhood of Jews and Israel fit in?
  - wahern 9y ago
    I'm well aware of the context, contemporary cultural trends in Evangelicalism, and aware that their behavior was innocent on a personal level. But it speaks to how the incidents of Judaism and Jewishness are conflated with the individuals, causing the objectification of a group people. (Also, neither of us was there. My manager was and we'll have to take his word regarding how out of sorts it was. There's more to the story, such as what the booth was promoting and his interactions with attendees, of which I don't remember the specifics. As a Catholic kid who grew up in the Deep South being teased by Baptist and Pentecostal kids--and sometimes teachers--for supposedly worshipping Mary and who used the incidents of my religion--praying the Rosary, sign of the cross--to demean me, I think I have some sense of how non-practitioners handling such things, depending on the context and their manner, could be indicative of some deeper social pathology. Another example as a Catholic--the way Hollywood mines Roman Catholic symbolism to impart mystical, paranormal, or conspiratorial qualities to a story, always conspicuously devoid of core Christian symbols like Jesus, because in the traditional Protestant-American narrative Catholicism was everything _except_ the worship of Jesus.) Where the victimhood comes in is how Evangelical Christian politicians in particular justify extreme, pro-Israeli foreign policies by reference to the history of anti-Semitism and in particular the Holocaust. These people claim to know what anti-Semitism means and how it should inform politics, even though they're neither Jewish nor ever had to personally experience anti-Semitism. They objective Israelis and Jews the way Muslim leaders in Arab countries objectify Jewish and Christian minorities, by reference to their special status as Abrahamic religions and a God given mandate to protect them. And within the larger narrative of victimization in American culture, they've positioned themselves as defenders of a victimized group--much like they've positioned themselves as victims in the recent Freedom of Religion debates--and used that position to justify policies with are ultimately self-serving. (So far the policies are largely welcomed in Israel, but I'm sure most Israelis know they're playing with fire by courting Evangelical groups.) More to the point, the staff who worked at that think tank were well aware of the objectification and deeper prejudices that underlay the financial and political support given to them by certain groups. It's a complex and subtle dimension to racism that most people don't understand, especially if they've not experienced it first hand. That Evangelical Christians are oblivious to this dimension speaks to how pernicious it can be, as it shows how people believing themselves innocent, sympathetic, and righteous can unknowingly harbor, perpetuate, and exacerbate social prejudice.

merpnderp 9y ago

No they see individuals blaming their poor choices on things which happened hundreds of years ago. If your parents didn't give two craps about your education and you did poorly in school, that is your parent's fault, who made a conscious choice. If you do the same to your children, it is your fault. And to blame something which happened hundreds of years ago, is to ensure this problem never gets resolved, because making poor choices is easy when you don't suffer the blame.

alphabettsy 9y ago
What exactly are you referring to? If we’re talking in the context of education, it’s well-established that education in this country is not equal. The factors including race and class that led to this have their roots in historical factors, yet a solution must be found as the issues exist today. What exactly happened hundreds of years ago that you’re referring to?

wahern 9y ago

Victimhood is becoming fetishized in our culture. To the extent it's fetishized, it results in the objectification of people, shifts attention away from substantive issues, and can provide cover for outright avoiding necessary change. It's similar to how conservative Christians have fetishized Jews and Israel, which is partly a result of conservatives latching onto this victimhood trend--victimhood by proxy. I used to work for a pro-Israel non-profit foreign policy think tank. Much of the staff was Jewish, and a significant portion (though by no means the majority) of operating funds came from Christian Evangelical donors. My manager once recounted a trip to a Christian Evangelical conference. One of the booths had a Shofar, a ram's horn traditionally used in Jewish religious services. People were lining up to blow it. The whole scene in full context came across to him as very... let's say crass and awkward and perhaps borderline racist. He wasn't personally offended and wouldn't have considered it "wrong", per se, but I think it suffices as an example of how fetishization of status and identity can result in recapitulating the same sins that ostensibly drew attention, interest, and sympathy. I think the previous poster's point was that because our culture fetishizes victimhood, our culture incentivizes people to identify with victimized groups who really have no understanding of either the historical or, especially, modern persecution of the group, and especially the most worse off in the group (no group is homogenous). They co-opt the identity and then purport to opine on social and political issues from a privileged position, often to the detriment of the most worse off individuals in the group. Eventually self-appointed supporters and defenders begin to do the same thing. There's a fine line between drawing attention to legitimate social issues by popularizing group identity, and the broader culture wresting the autonomy and self-determination of a group. Native Americans, perhaps more than any other minority group in this country, should be aware of this phenomenon, as every red-blooded American with a 5th grade education purports to understand the mistreatment of Native American tribes, and yet our laws to this day often continue to get worse! It's great that many, say, victims of sexual assault and sexual harassment can now find _empowerment_ in open association with other similarly harmed individuals. But make no mistake, the broader culture (of both men and women) has already begun co-opting this particular trend. It's always two steps forward, one step back.

eesmith 9y ago
I don't see where "victimhood by proxy" fits into your example. I thought the Christian Evangelical support of Jews and Israel was more from other reasons. I was brought up in a strongly Christian family. When I think of a shofar, the first thing that comes to mind is the Battle of Jericho. I can totally see why someone would want to blow in a shofar because of its Biblical associations. Some Evangelical Christians support Israel because of Christian Zionism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism . Quoting from there: > Christian believers are instructed by Scripture to acknowledge the Hebraic roots of their faith and to actively assist and participate in the plan of God for the Ingathering of the Jewish People and the Restoration of the nation of Israel in our day. The end goal is that this is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the world. Where does a fetishized victimhood of Jews and Israel fit in?
- wahern 9y ago
  I'm well aware of the context, contemporary cultural trends in Evangelicalism, and aware that their behavior was innocent on a personal level. But it speaks to how the incidents of Judaism and Jewishness are conflated with the individuals, causing the objectification of a group people. (Also, neither of us was there. My manager was and we'll have to take his word regarding how out of sorts it was. There's more to the story, such as what the booth was promoting and his interactions with attendees, of which I don't remember the specifics. As a Catholic kid who grew up in the Deep South being teased by Baptist and Pentecostal kids--and sometimes teachers--for supposedly worshipping Mary and who used the incidents of my religion--praying the Rosary, sign of the cross--to demean me, I think I have some sense of how non-practitioners handling such things, depending on the context and their manner, could be indicative of some deeper social pathology. Another example as a Catholic--the way Hollywood mines Roman Catholic symbolism to impart mystical, paranormal, or conspiratorial qualities to a story, always conspicuously devoid of core Christian symbols like Jesus, because in the traditional Protestant-American narrative Catholicism was everything _except_ the worship of Jesus.) Where the victimhood comes in is how Evangelical Christian politicians in particular justify extreme, pro-Israeli foreign policies by reference to the history of anti-Semitism and in particular the Holocaust. These people claim to know what anti-Semitism means and how it should inform politics, even though they're neither Jewish nor ever had to personally experience anti-Semitism. They objective Israelis and Jews the way Muslim leaders in Arab countries objectify Jewish and Christian minorities, by reference to their special status as Abrahamic religions and a God given mandate to protect them. And within the larger narrative of victimization in American culture, they've positioned themselves as defenders of a victimized group--much like they've positioned themselves as victims in the recent Freedom of Religion debates--and used that position to justify policies with are ultimately self-serving. (So far the policies are largely welcomed in Israel, but I'm sure most Israelis know they're playing with fire by courting Evangelical groups.) More to the point, the staff who worked at that think tank were well aware of the objectification and deeper prejudices that underlay the financial and political support given to them by certain groups. It's a complex and subtle dimension to racism that most people don't understand, especially if they've not experienced it first hand. That Evangelical Christians are oblivious to this dimension speaks to how pernicious it can be, as it shows how people believing themselves innocent, sympathetic, and righteous can unknowingly harbor, perpetuate, and exacerbate social prejudice.