4 ms·

It seems like today everyone want to feel victimized somehow, sure a lot of terrible things happened in the past, and it's good to be aware of that so we won't

by elboru 9y ago

It seems like today everyone want to feel victimized somehow, sure a lot of terrible things happened in the past, and it's good to be aware of that so we won't let that kind of atrocities happen ever again. I'm from Mexico and here a lot of people "hate" on Spaniards because "they conquered us" that exclamation sounds pretty absurd when it comes from a dude with lactose tolerance and a big beard (both gifts from Europe). Population from northern states will have around 70% European DNA and 30% Native American, Southern states usually go the other way around 30% European 70% Native American, some researchers would say not even Native Americans of today are 100% pure natives, Mexico experienced a mix of cultures and blood since the XVI century. And yes it involved war, slavery and a lot of other atrocities. But the truth is we're not either the conquerors nor the conquered ones or you could say we're both, we're the result of that mix of cultures, trying to feel victimized for something that provoked one of your ancestors to other of your ancestors doesn't make sense.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
I'm not so sure that people actively seek out a sense of victimization. I think that humans have a desire to have a positive identity, and with most Americans having fewer long-term careers, friends, religious connections, or community support, people are turning to identity politics to gain their sense of identity.
alphabettsy 9y ago
How does becoming more aware of the past mean everyone wants to be a victim? Part of learning about the past also involves learning about how past issues have carried us to where we are today and how sometimes the issues of the past still emerge in unexpected ways. The bigger issue is people wanting to continue being oblivious about how the past affects the present because it’s uncomfortable.
- merpnderp 9y ago
  No they see individuals blaming their poor choices on things which happened hundreds of years ago. If your parents didn't give two craps about your education and you did poorly in school, that is your parent's fault, who made a conscious choice. If you do the same to your children, it is your fault. And to blame something which happened hundreds of years ago, is to ensure this problem never gets resolved, because making poor choices is easy when you don't suffer the blame.
  - alphabettsy 9y ago
    What exactly are you referring to? If we’re talking in the context of education, it’s well-established that education in this country is not equal. The factors including race and class that led to this have their roots in historical factors, yet a solution must be found as the issues exist today. What exactly happened hundreds of years ago that you’re referring to?
- wahern 9y ago
  Victimhood is becoming fetishized in our culture. To the extent it's fetishized, it results in the objectification of people, shifts attention away from substantive issues, and can provide cover for outright avoiding necessary change. It's similar to how conservative Christians have fetishized Jews and Israel, which is partly a result of conservatives latching onto this victimhood trend--victimhood by proxy. I used to work for a pro-Israel non-profit foreign policy think tank. Much of the staff was Jewish, and a significant portion (though by no means the majority) of operating funds came from Christian Evangelical donors. My manager once recounted a trip to a Christian Evangelical conference. One of the booths had a Shofar, a ram's horn traditionally used in Jewish religious services. People were lining up to blow it. The whole scene in full context came across to him as very... let's say crass and awkward and perhaps borderline racist. He wasn't personally offended and wouldn't have considered it "wrong", per se, but I think it suffices as an example of how fetishization of status and identity can result in recapitulating the same sins that ostensibly drew attention, interest, and sympathy. I think the previous poster's point was that because our culture fetishizes victimhood, our culture incentivizes people to identify with victimized groups who really have no understanding of either the historical or, especially, modern persecution of the group, and especially the most worse off in the group (no group is homogenous). They co-opt the identity and then purport to opine on social and political issues from a privileged position, often to the detriment of the most worse off individuals in the group. Eventually self-appointed supporters and defenders begin to do the same thing. There's a fine line between drawing attention to legitimate social issues by popularizing group identity, and the broader culture wresting the autonomy and self-determination of a group. Native Americans, perhaps more than any other minority group in this country, should be aware of this phenomenon, as every red-blooded American with a 5th grade education purports to understand the mistreatment of Native American tribes, and yet our laws to this day often continue to get worse! It's great that many, say, victims of sexual assault and sexual harassment can now find _empowerment_ in open association with other similarly harmed individuals. But make no mistake, the broader culture (of both men and women) has already begun co-opting this particular trend. It's always two steps forward, one step back.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    I don't see where "victimhood by proxy" fits into your example. I thought the Christian Evangelical support of Jews and Israel was more from other reasons. I was brought up in a strongly Christian family. When I think of a shofar, the first thing that comes to mind is the Battle of Jericho. I can totally see why someone would want to blow in a shofar because of its Biblical associations. Some Evangelical Christians support Israel because of Christian Zionism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism . Quoting from there: > Christian believers are instructed by Scripture to acknowledge the Hebraic roots of their faith and to actively assist and participate in the plan of God for the Ingathering of the Jewish People and the Restoration of the nation of Israel in our day. The end goal is that this is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the world. Where does a fetishized victimhood of Jews and Israel fit in?
dmoy 9y ago
It's even weirder in the US historically, where you could literally change from black to white and back by hopping state borders.
duopixel 9y ago
I was going to write that we should simply do away with nation narratives. Be a proud member of your nation and become a fascist, be angry at those who abused their power and you’ll blame all your problems on external forces, stripping you of all agency. But all of history is nation narratives! In Mexico the US stole Texas, in the US Texas wanted independence from Mexico to join the union. I’m not sure if there can be anything resembling objective history, but I think Jodorowsky’s assertion that seeking identity in our nationality is misguided. We are certainly products of our culture, but confusing our culture with our country will only cause more atrocities.

by elboru 9y ago

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago

I'm not so sure that people actively seek out a sense of victimization. I think that humans have a desire to have a positive identity, and with most Americans having fewer long-term careers, friends, religious connections, or community support, people are turning to identity politics to gain their sense of identity.

alphabettsy 9y ago

How does becoming more aware of the past mean everyone wants to be a victim? Part of learning about the past also involves learning about how past issues have carried us to where we are today and how sometimes the issues of the past still emerge in unexpected ways. The bigger issue is people wanting to continue being oblivious about how the past affects the present because it’s uncomfortable.

merpnderp 9y ago
No they see individuals blaming their poor choices on things which happened hundreds of years ago. If your parents didn't give two craps about your education and you did poorly in school, that is your parent's fault, who made a conscious choice. If you do the same to your children, it is your fault. And to blame something which happened hundreds of years ago, is to ensure this problem never gets resolved, because making poor choices is easy when you don't suffer the blame.
- alphabettsy 9y ago
  What exactly are you referring to? If we’re talking in the context of education, it’s well-established that education in this country is not equal. The factors including race and class that led to this have their roots in historical factors, yet a solution must be found as the issues exist today. What exactly happened hundreds of years ago that you’re referring to?
wahern 9y ago
Victimhood is becoming fetishized in our culture. To the extent it's fetishized, it results in the objectification of people, shifts attention away from substantive issues, and can provide cover for outright avoiding necessary change. It's similar to how conservative Christians have fetishized Jews and Israel, which is partly a result of conservatives latching onto this victimhood trend--victimhood by proxy. I used to work for a pro-Israel non-profit foreign policy think tank. Much of the staff was Jewish, and a significant portion (though by no means the majority) of operating funds came from Christian Evangelical donors. My manager once recounted a trip to a Christian Evangelical conference. One of the booths had a Shofar, a ram's horn traditionally used in Jewish religious services. People were lining up to blow it. The whole scene in full context came across to him as very... let's say crass and awkward and perhaps borderline racist. He wasn't personally offended and wouldn't have considered it "wrong", per se, but I think it suffices as an example of how fetishization of status and identity can result in recapitulating the same sins that ostensibly drew attention, interest, and sympathy. I think the previous poster's point was that because our culture fetishizes victimhood, our culture incentivizes people to identify with victimized groups who really have no understanding of either the historical or, especially, modern persecution of the group, and especially the most worse off in the group (no group is homogenous). They co-opt the identity and then purport to opine on social and political issues from a privileged position, often to the detriment of the most worse off individuals in the group. Eventually self-appointed supporters and defenders begin to do the same thing. There's a fine line between drawing attention to legitimate social issues by popularizing group identity, and the broader culture wresting the autonomy and self-determination of a group. Native Americans, perhaps more than any other minority group in this country, should be aware of this phenomenon, as every red-blooded American with a 5th grade education purports to understand the mistreatment of Native American tribes, and yet our laws to this day often continue to get worse! It's great that many, say, victims of sexual assault and sexual harassment can now find _empowerment_ in open association with other similarly harmed individuals. But make no mistake, the broader culture (of both men and women) has already begun co-opting this particular trend. It's always two steps forward, one step back.
- eesmith 9y ago
  I don't see where "victimhood by proxy" fits into your example. I thought the Christian Evangelical support of Jews and Israel was more from other reasons. I was brought up in a strongly Christian family. When I think of a shofar, the first thing that comes to mind is the Battle of Jericho. I can totally see why someone would want to blow in a shofar because of its Biblical associations. Some Evangelical Christians support Israel because of Christian Zionism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism . Quoting from there: > Christian believers are instructed by Scripture to acknowledge the Hebraic roots of their faith and to actively assist and participate in the plan of God for the Ingathering of the Jewish People and the Restoration of the nation of Israel in our day. The end goal is that this is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the world. Where does a fetishized victimhood of Jews and Israel fit in?

dmoy 9y ago

It's even weirder in the US historically, where you could literally change from black to white and back by hopping state borders.

duopixel 9y ago

I was going to write that we should simply do away with nation narratives. Be a proud member of your nation and become a fascist, be angry at those who abused their power and you’ll blame all your problems on external forces, stripping you of all agency. But all of history is nation narratives! In Mexico the US stole Texas, in the US Texas wanted independence from Mexico to join the union. I’m not sure if there can be anything resembling objective history, but I think Jodorowsky’s assertion that seeking identity in our nationality is misguided. We are certainly products of our culture, but confusing our culture with our country will only cause more atrocities.